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Why You Don't Get Published

The funniest rants, dialogue and comments from Evil Editor's Face-Lifts, sprinkled--and poured--into a collection of nearly six dozen author questions with EE's (sometimes) hilarious responses. That rare book about the craft of writing that manages to be both entertaining and useful, and a great gift for any aspiring writer. Or anyone with a sense of humor.

$9.00




Why You Don't Get Published, Vol. 2

Another hilarious batch of the same kind of stuff that's in volume 1.

You can't have one without the other! Okay, you can, but it's bad karma.

$9.00





Watch the Why You Don't Get Published book trailer:

Novel Deviations
Volume 1

A collection of 90 hilarious "New Beginnings."
One of those books you'll read again and again.

$9.00

Novel Deviations
Volume 2

Another collection of the funniest New Beginnings, along with a few surprises.

$9.00

Novel Deviations
Volume 3

Finding this book in your mailbox is like finding a twenty-dollar bill on the street, except you could have bought two copies with a twenty-dollar bill, and now you owe Master Card $11.50.

$9.00




Watch the Novel Deviations book trailer:






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How Evil Editor's Blog Works-FAQ

1. What the--??

The blog's main features:

Face-Lifts/Synopses

Authors with books that they feel are ready for publication prepare query letters or synopses, which they plan to send to publishers or literary agents. They get these into the best possible condition, and then email them to Evil Editor. Evil Editor prints them exactly as they came to him, adding his own comments in a different color. Evil Editor's comments are intended for entertainment purposes only, although many readers insist on finding them instructional as well. The word limit for a synopsis is 400. Queries aren't limited by EE, but if you can't fit it on one page, it's probably too long.

New Beginnings
Authors submit the first 150 words (approximately) of their books. Evil Editor's minions will provide a brief continuation of the book, and will then provide comments on the opening. You don't have to adopt the continuation, although in most cases it's far more interesting than the way your book really goes.


2. How--?

Email queries, synopses and openings to evledtr@gmail.com. Within the email, not attached. If your query gives no clue as to where your title comes from, that's fine, but you might let Evil Editor know where you got the title, so that he can create a "Guess the Plot" that sounds like someone might reasonably have made it up after seeing your title.





3. Huh?

At the beginning of each Face-Lift is a feature called Guess the Plot. It includes five fake plots along with the correct plot for the title of the book. The fake plots are submitted by EE's Evil Minions, of which you are now a member. On this site (EvilEditor.net) you'll find a list of titles waiting for fake plots. Click on "Guess the Plot," in the sidebar to the left.


3. How else--?

You can provide a continuation for some author's opening. Openings are listed at http://www.evileditorsopenings.blogspot.com/. There's a link to this list in the sidebar of the main blog. Continuations need to bring an unexpected twist to the story. Humor is encouraged.

You may also comment on any post. When submitting a comment, try to be helpful or witty or both. All authors enjoy praise and constructive criticism. And don't forget to include praise for Evil Editor.

You may also show up, read the new posts, and leave. No obligation, except to have fun.


4. Can I--?

No. You must be willing to be humiliated (or praised) in a public forum. The lessons to be learned from having your query critiqued are probably available in the critiques of other authors' queries, however, so if you don't have the guts to submit, read the archives.


5. What if--?

If you disagree with Evil Editor, strive to see where you've gone wrong. If you disagree with a commenter, remember, it's just one person's opinion. It's your book. A consensus of opinions may indicate that you have a problem worth addressing.


6. When--?

If you've submitted a query, you should soon find it listed on this site (EvilEditor.net) in the "Queries Waiting." Others in the queue have been waiting longer than you, so be patient. Queries/synopses are critiqued in the order received.

If you've submitted an opening to your book, it will appear on the main blog soon after a suitable continuation has been found. This could take hours or weeks. Evil Editor is picky.


7. What about--?

Most of them are answered in the archives. If reading the archives is a pain, you can order Evil Editor's books, Why You Don't Get Published, which collects many of the funniest Q & A's along with hilarious excerpts from the Face-Lifts, and Novel Deviations, which collects the best of the New Beginnings.

The archives, by the way, may be more enjoyable if you read from the earliest to the latest, as there are a few inside jokes you won't find amusing otherwise.

Guess the Plot

In order to offer the "Guess the Plot" feature with each query critique, Evil Editor needs his minions to suggest fake plots for the titles below. Titles will be removed from the list when we have at least five good ones. Titles will be added to the list as new query letters come in. So check back. Send your fake plots as comments to this post. Try to limit them to 50 words. Don't worry if your plot is hilarious and ridiculous; the actual plots usually are, as well. If you would be heartbroken to submit a plot, only to find it wasn't used, don't participate. We usually have twice as many as we need, and we don't want any hurt feelings out there.

Mysterious Gift
The Tooth of Time
The Faerie Knight

Queries Waiting

Below, listed in the order received, are the titles of books whose query letters have been submitted for ridicule, but not yet critiqued.

Mysterious Gift
The Tooth of Time
The Faerie Knight

Cartoons Needing Captions

Each cartoon below needs a caption. Once we have a good one the cartoon will disappear, and will eventually appear on Evil Editor's main blog. The cartoon should relate in some way to writing. (If it includes Evil Editor, it already relates to writing, of course.) Submit captions as comments to this post, and identify your cartoon by number. If you want credit, don't submit anonymously.

As cartoons get removed they'll be replaced by new ones, so check back often. If you can't see the drawing well enough, click on it for an enlargement.


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Book Chat Schedule

Evil Editor hosts a monthly book discussion on his blog. Books are chosen by EE with an eye toward providing exposure to a different genre each month. Perhaps after encountering an author you wouldn't normally read, you'll want to purchase his/her other books.

As the Evil Minions live all over the globe, it is unlikely everyone can participate in the discussions, but the text of the discussions remains on the blog for those who read the book but couldn't make the discussion. An edited version of each book chat may be viewed on this blog. Each discussion will last about an hour toward the end of the month. The exact dates and times will be announced at least ten days in advance. Here's the upcoming schedule:


November, 2009

Devil's Cape (Superhero Novel), Rob Rogers

If New Orleans has earned its "Sin City" nickname for its debauchery, then its nearby sister Devil's Cape has earned its "Pirate Town" moniker for the violence and blatant corruption that have marred the city since its founding. A city where corruption and heroism walk hand-in-hand, and justice and mercy are bought and paid-for in blood, Devil's Cape is a city like no other.

Devil's Cape is a novel like no other. It blends the gritty crime novel with a heavy dose of the supernatural and weaves a tale of superhuman heroes and villains.

Devil's Cape is the author's first novel. He is hoping to attend the chat.





December, 2009

Black Hole (Graphic Novel), Charles Burns

Starred reviews in Publishers Weekly, Booklist and School Library Journal. Plus: Winner of the Eisner, Harvey, and Ignatz Awards

"Smoldering brilliant... "--The Boston Globe

"The best graphic novel of the year... One of the most stunning graphic novels yet published."--Time

"Black Hole is Burns's masterwork."--The New York Times Book Review

"Surreal and unnerving... A remarkable work."--Chicago Sun-Times



January, 2010

The Gentling Box (Horror), Lisa Mannetti

Winner of the Bram Stoker Award for best first novel of 2008. The author is hoping to attend the chat.











February, 2010

The Courtesan's Secret (Regency Romance), Claudia Dain

"Clever, smart, fresh, and passionate, this lively romp is the latest addition to Dain’s Courtesan series (The Courtesan’s Daughter); readers will find it as delightfully entertaining as the last." - Library Journal

The author is hoping to attend the chat.

March, 2010

Dangerous Laughter (Short Story Collection), Steven Millhauser

Millhauser won the 1997 Pulitzer Prize for fiction. This collection was named one of the ten best books of 2008 by The New Yorker.








April, 2010

The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down (Nonfiction), Anne Fadiman

The book was winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award for general nonfiction, 1997.

The author hopes to attend the chat.








Sorry. Because taking book suggestions from the Evil Minions would result in a veritable flood, you are stuck with EE's choices.

The Sean Stewart/ Perfect Circle Book Chat

March 31, 2008.

Perfect Circle (Contemporary Fantasy), Sean Stewart

William "Dead" Kennedy has problems. He's haunted by family, by dead people with unfinished business, and by those perfect pop songs that you can't get out of your head. He's a 32-year-old Texan still in love with his ex-wife. He just lost his job at Pet-Co for eating cat food. His air-conditioning is broken, there's no good music on the radio, and he's been dreaming about ghost roads.

Sean Stewart won the World Fantasy Award for his novel Galveston. He has garnered many other award nominations. Perfect Circle was a Nebula and World Fantasy Award finalist, A Book Sense Notable Book, and made Best of the Year lists with: Booklist, Locus and The San Francisco Chronicle.

Stewart's bio and more about Perfect Circle may be found at his web site: http://www.seanstewart.org/ .

An edited (for clarity) version of the chat transcript:

Sean said...
All right. I'm here. --Sean

Evil Editor said...
Welcome, and thank you.

Robin S. said...The baptismal scene at the end of the book – Will wonders (to his dead uncle) if being a nonbeliever will render moot his river baptism. But he is reborn, and he can feel it, sense it, see the colors change and brighten with a new kind of sight – one that isn’t murky and dark. Will’s redemption/rebirth leads the reader to believe that he will have an easier time of it from this time forward, even though he’ll still see the dead (a good thing, given his new and potentially successful career path). When you wrote the book, what did you feel would be the cause of his redemption? Did you already have the confluence of events/wakeup calls that changed him in mind, or did they grow organically as you wrote the novel?

Sean said...
I read through some of the questions from earlier, and thought maybe I could try to provide a bit of a framework for answering them. Asking for forgiveness, I will post a little thing and then directly answer that question...

I am a little hesitant to put forth a lot of Official Authorial Opinions about any of my books. Mark Twain’s comment that explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog—it can be done, but the frog tends to die in the process—applies to novels as well, and makes me want to tread very lightly through these kinds of questions. (Also, there’s Samuel Delaney’s memorable, “For an opinion about a book that *really* misses the point, ask the author.”) I can tell you that a ghost is a tricky antagonist; a climactic scene where a human “fights” a ghost by casting counter-curses or whatever strikes me as missing some essential element of being haunted. It treats ghosts as if they were dragons or Mafia hitmen or something. One of the central insights of the book—one it hit me over the head with right after I had decided to chuck the whole project as a dumb idea—is that a ghost never “does something to you.” It makes you do something to yourself.

When you start there, at the proposition that Will himself is the only real weapon the ghost has, I hope the book begins to make sense. In a very blunt synopsis:1) Will is very very very very angry and hurt

2) Will is very very very scared of feeling that anger and hurt

3) Paralysis feels like a really good option

4) Feeling returns to Will—often externalized or projected onto “ghosts” like AJ and Hanlon--and those feelings are every bit as dangerous and hurtful as he had feared

5) In the end, Will is back in the world of feeling; he is no longer a ghost himself, a memory, a haunting. Time starts. Life goes on.

Except, you know, denial doesn’t last forever. (Or makes for a boring book, anyway…)

And, to the specific question...A book that’s any good is an act of exploration; the book is always smarter than you are, and a lot of writing is writing down your dumb ideas quickly and then listening carefully as the book tries to tell you more clearly what you screwed up and what actually it wants to be. (You can think of Michaelangelo’s “shape inside the marble” saying, “That’s my ELBOW, moron! Watch it with the chisel already…”)

Robin S. said...
Hi Sean- Great answer to my question- thanks-I was surprised to see Hanlon manipulating Will to kill Josie - but it made sense - for the reasons you just mentioned.

Dave F. said...
I thought the baptism was more of a reward for DK's coming to terms with his dead girlfriend.

Robin S. said...
The narrative style you chose for this novel- scenes and flashbacks, rather than a straight “historical” narrative – I thought as I read that you might have chosen this style to fit the way Will’s mind worked, with his ghost road encounters and his scattershot approach to life. Is that right?

Sean said...
On narrative flashback technique:Well, sure, I’ll take any credit I can get. Seriously, the key point of being haunted is that there is something in your past you can’t let go. That paralysis, that way of seeing the world through the lens of unfinished business, is as much part of Will as seeing ghosts. You could say, in fact, that the two things are the same….

Robin S. said...
So the ideas did grow organically, then? You had a general idea, and then the rest followed on?

Dave F. said...
His Grandfather keeps saying you've left a pert of yourself behind and he has. He's given up his wife, he's given up his child, and he just seems to say, I'm going to live alone, unwanted and miserable by my own choosing. He uses his seeing of the dead as an excuse not to live, not to drive, not to marry, not to have a job, not to see the dead. You can't give up that much of yourself.

Jenna Black said...
I hope it's considered on topic for me to say: hey Sean, your books rock! I've been a huge fan for many years now. I was really glad EE was around to point me toward PERFECT CIRCLE!

Evil Editor said...
So, Jenna, which Sean Stewart book should those who've read only this one read next?

Jenna Black said...
Wow, tough question! I'd probably have to say RESURRECTION MAN. (But I also really love PASSION PLAY and NOBODY'S SON.)

Sean said...
First of all, Jenna, flattery is never off topic, at least with any entertainer I know. :)Generally speaking, I think PERFECT CIRCLE generally aligns with MOCKINGBIRD and RESURRECTION MAN. But Jenna is kind enough to read the straight up SF/F stuff as well.

Evil Editor said...
Passion Play is a mystery...sort of?

BuffySquirrel said...
Passion Play is a mystery. EE, you rock.
Sean, are you a fan of REM or is it just DK? Just askin'.

Evil Editor said...
If REM produced DK's favorite album ever, I would expect him to listen to a lot of U2, Springsteen...REM. DK's taste in other music seems less mainstream.

Wes said...
Sean, your depiction of redneck culture was marvelous. Spot on, fresh, colorful, insightful, etc.

Wes said...
Your portrayal of dialect with idiom and word choice rather than phonetics was excellent. It caused me to rewrite some of my stuff.

Evil Editor said...
While we wait, topic for discussion: Fish hooks: clever fighting ploy or profound symbol?

BuffySquirrel said...
They can't be both, EE?I suppose they might symbolise the fact that threats in the book are hidden from others--only DK can see the ghosts.

Jenna Black said...
A fishing lure plays a major role in RESURRECTION MAN as well. I was wondering if there's some deep meaning behind the fishing implements, or if it's just a coincidence. They seem to have a somewhat sinister role in both books.

Sean said...
Sorry, Blogger punted me there for a sec.Dave, I think your read on the book is very sharp.Sqrl, you caught me. I am probably a bigger fan of REM than Will is; he listens to a lot of hardcore stuff. One of us has a bunch of Gun Club albums, and it isn't me...Vis a vis redneck culture...This is my family, for better or worse. Most of the characters in the book are probably uncomfortably true to life.

Xenith said...
Now that's what I was going to ask. It did have an insider's flavour to it.

Dave F. said...
As someone who grew up from Elvis and standard 50's bar music (my musician wannabe days), I have to ask the SCI FI question...I grew up on Isaac Asimov, AC Clark, Bester and Heinlein, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits,- - Why is this Sci Fi? To my mind it's a ghost story and those were not Sci Fi that many years ago. Yet suddenly, ghost stories are Sci Fi.

Sean said...
Heck if I know. But then, I don't think that term was ever a useful one, except for marketers. Certainly "The Handmaid's Tale" (never marketed as such) qualifies far more than "Perfect Circle"The real answer is an exercise in field biology more than in tasonomy: my first book was an SF novel from an SF publisher, therefore I am an SF writer......for all the same reasons and to about the same degree as, say, Karen Joy Fowler (author of that noted SF classic, The Jane Austen Book Club)genre fiction and non-genre fiction have been steadily folding back together, really ever since 100 Years of solitude, but unmistakably in the last decade. Genre SF is also all but dead as a commercial sector of publishing; expect to see anything that might get a lot of readers reclassified as YA, Contemporary, Slipstream, or just Another Cool Michael Chabon Book

Evil Editor said...
Somehow Vonnegut wrote SF without being classified as such. What was his first book?

Xenith said...
Because Vonnegut was first published before the whole "marketing divisions genre is everything" thing took off?

Sean said...
Player Piano, in Vonnegut's case. The funny thing is, a lot of his early books include references to Kilgore Trout (who is PK Dick, who used to be an SF writer, and then became a Post Modern Master of Pop Culture, and is now a Hollywood Engine.)A comparable case is DF Wallace, whose Infinite Jest is steeped in SF six ways to sunday, but started at Atlantic Grove. Go figure.(Actually, SF superstar Neal Stephenson started at Atlantic, too, but only hit commercial success with his Very SF book Snow Crash from ...Bantam, I think. Meanwhile, he was writing pseudonymous technothrillers like Interface (which I like a lot) that were very similar but courted the Tom Clancy market instead.Authors are, I think, consistently bemused by the ways in which the industry tries to pigeonhole what we do.That isn't to say they are wrong: with 6 zillion books to choose from, there have to be some shorthands employed in the hope that people can find what they will like.As it happens, the tags have never applied very well to me.

BuffySquirrel said...
Yeah, but Dick's mainstream novels--which the agent for his estate is finally getting published--are shelved under SFF, at least here in the UK.

Dave F. said...
I got this off Wikipedia: Vonnegut's first short story, "Report on the Barnhouse Effect" appeared in the February 11, 1950 edition of Collier's. His first novel was the dystopian novel Player Piano (1952), in which human workers have been largely replaced by machines. He continued to write short stories before his second novel, The Sirens of Titan, was published in 1959.[22] Through the 1960s, the form of his work changed, from the relatively orthodox structure of Cat's Cradle (which in 1971 earned him a master's degree) to the acclaimed, semiautobiographical Slaughterhouse-Five, given a more experimental structure by using time travel as a plot device.

Robin S. said...
Are you thinking of doing a follow-on novel with Will?

Evil Editor said...
Am I the only one who would want to read a book starring DK as a successful businessman?

Wes said...
Actually, DK would be a great negotiator as a business person because he can see the ghosts haunting his adversaries.

Robin S. said...
I agree, xenith. Same with some of Margaret Atwood's stuff, as mentioned earlier.Good writing is good writing. too bad'good writing' isn't simply its own genre. That would solve a lot of problems.

Robin S. said...
I liked the style of the book. it seemed that I was reading in Will's 'style' of thinking.

BuffySquirrel said...
I'd like to discuss the concept of "loving a woman enough to kill her", which I find very creepy, but does seem to be at the heart of the book. How can that be viewed as the ultimate expression of love?

Sean said...
First of all, you have to take any idea that comes out of Hanlon’s mouth with a hefty dose of salt. In Will’s case, the risk of feeling at all is the risk of feeling some very dark things. Hanlon’s words, like those of the witches in MacBeth, are whispers aimed not at the conscious man, but at the dark places he carries inside himself.

Personally, I don’t buy that “loving a woman enough to kill her” stuff for a second: but art always acknowledges that passion can be a dark magic, terribly dangerous to everyone involved. (cf. Medea, Othello, Wuthering Heights, Nine Inch Nails, etc…)

Wes said...
Re: loving a woman enough to kill her-----There is a tradition in English folk music and American mountain music of men killing the women they love. Don't blame me, I didn't write it. Someone help me, what is the old traditional song Johnny Cash redid----Deep in the Dungeon????Sean, is this a reflection of redneck culture, or a coincidenc

BuffySquirrel said...
I suppose in a way DK decides that he loves a woman enough not to kill her, lol

Sean said...
Wes made a very interesting comment about folk music, to which the answer would be, "I dunno." I can say that I wrote large portions of this book with a song on autorepeat playing ICREDIBLY LOUDLY on autorepeat. The three songs wereWerewolves in LondonWho are You...and a dobro/steel guitar/mandolin version of Hey Joe that is about as incendiary a cover as you will ever hear: this chattering, chiming machine gun with this country voice howling, "Gonna shoot my old lady, caught her messin' around with another man."The management does not endorse this view. (Happily married for 21 years, 2 kids, swear to god.)

BuffySquirrel said...
Werewolves of London? Wooh!

ril said...
Sean,I find if I take the view there aren't any such things as ghosts, and they're all in Will's mind, the book still works for me, though it makes Will a somewhat different character. There's no real confirmation even that the ghost Hanlon hears and the ghost Will sees in Hanlon's house are the same. Was it your intent for this to be ambiguous, or would you say "yeah, Will sees the ghosts and the ghosts roads; they're there"?

Sean said...
ril:I know this is probably a frustrating answer, but I actually don't care if there "are real ghosts" It's like the question "do you believe in god" -- it's asking the wrong question in the wrong way.Will has a certain experience, finis.Put another way, there is a set-piece in fantastic writing in which the character puts their head between their knees and says, OMG, Am I GOING CRAZY? It's always a dull interlude in a book because of course they aren't, or the story wouldn't be happening. So I have always been allergic to that real/not real dichotomy. Characters have the experiences they have: and with luck, those experiences are not just the ticking of the plot clock, but things that have real emotional meaning to them as people.

ril said...
Sean,Thanks - not frustrating at all. I felt there was ambiguity in much of the book, in the plot, in the characters and their experiences, and I like ambiguity -- that's reality.

Jenna Black said...
I'm glad to hear there's someone else who doesn't like those "am I going crazy?" scenes! I've always avoided them like the plague. (Except when my editor insisted I put one in. Gak!)

BuffySquirrel said...
I like the scenes where someone convinces the protagonist that they're crazy--or tries to--for Some Nefarious Purpose.

Evil Editor said...
Many of your books were published by small presses, even after you'd won major awards. Is this your choice?

Robin S. said...
Oh - I'm very interested in your answer to EE's last question re: small publishers.

Sean said...
whoa, a run of great questions:first, small presses:Long tiresome story with this book. Short version, it was time to try a new publisher, so I left Ace, which had done the first 7 books, on an offer from a powerful editor at a big house for Perfect Circle. I wrote the book and turned it in: at which point said editor left for another job. At my old publisher. So now a junior editor was suddenly trying to figure out what to do with this book she hadn’t asked for. She said they might still be willing to publish the book, as long as I took out all the humor and the stuff about family.…At that point, I kinda decided that the money on the table wasn’t enough to justify wrecking the book I had wanted to write. I had a long-standing offer from Kelly & Gavin at Small Beer, so I called them up and asked if they would like to do the book. They did, and subsequently reissued another one of my books, Mockingbird.

Dave F. said...
I really enjoyed the TON of exposition about Hanlon as he burned to death and DK tried to leave the house before he passed out. That's a great way to shove all that backstory inside and yet not bore the reader. And still, the ghost is tied to the past and a ghost ties the one they haunt to the past.

Xenith said...
I was interested in the way you use specific details to paint the pictures e.g. "My father isn't wild about spending forty-eight hours sharing two campground porta-potties with upwards of a hundred Smithers, depending on how many are out on patrol", rather than "My father isn't keen about spending all weekend at a (insert adjective) family reunion".Is something you learnt or do naturally?

Sean said...
using specific details rather than generic stuff:Many writers believe that the particular is always more compelling than the generic; it's sharper and more to the point. It's also (as in the example you quote) funnier, and the book kind of needed to be funny (cuz otherwise it's kind of a depressing journey)And I absolutely had to force myself to learn to do this. A great deal ofthe discipline of revision is replacing the generic with the specific, at least for me.

Wes said...
Why is AJ's speech not in quotation marks?

Sean said...
No quote marks for AJIt's almost as if it was DK's thoughts, rather than a second character speaking, isn't it?(and here I would put a smile or something only Blogger has been severe with me when I tried stuff like that...)

Wes said...
Clever use of no quotes.......

Dave F. said...
And you must answer the Brian Lamb question: Where and how do you write? meaning do you have a special place? or time? or pen and ink? computer? The physicality of it.

Xenith said...
So who gets to ask "where do you get your ideas?" ;)

Robin S. said...
Hi Sean,I think I read on your website that you have input re: the covers, right? I'd love that kind of interaction and input. (At this point, I'd love ANYthing coming my way, but still...)ANDWhat about the fish hooks?

Sean said...
re: input on coversI have never had, or tried to exercise, iron control on covers. For one thing, I am extremely color blind, so not the guy you want making those calls.That said, most of my editors have been willing to talk about covers, and, you know, worried about it if they proposed something I absolutely hated.It also depends on what you are publishing, perhaps. If you are writing epic fantasy for DAW, they pretty much think they know how to sell that stuff, so they might not be so interested in your opinion.Book designers feel like they went to school to learn graphic design, and they don't tell you how to punctuate, so why don't you let them do their job and try to make a cover that sells the product. Authors don't help themselves much when they complain at length about, "It says on p. 153 that here hair is AUBURN, not BROWN" -- as that is missing the point of what a book cover is for.(Tying together the last two comments, you know the old joke: the purpose of a great fishing lure is to catch fisherman. Fish don't put money in anybody's hand...)

Evil Editor said...
I was highly annoyed when DK's ex warned Don about the fish hooks.

BuffySquirrel said...
Yes, EE, me too! It's not like DK had a lot of chance to win otherwise!

ril said...
Josie had a tough choice. Be sympathetic to Will and keep quiet or be loyal to her husband and warn Don. I kind of wanted Don to lose, but I pretty much understand why Josie couldn't let Will win in that way.

Sean said...
I can chat for a little longer, but I can also shut up and go away if our host needs to split.Re: warning Don. I'm glad if people can see that Don isn't a wholly bad guy...even if, in our heart of hearts, we want Will to kick the crap out of him.Josie *is* in a hard spot; in fact, there has just never been anything easy about being with DK.

Sean said...
Fish-hooks(forgive me if I miss stuff and thanks for reposting the Q)I had a friend who spent a year in Edinburgh and gang there do that trick, with the fishooks under the lapels. Stuck with me; vivid detail, isn't it?And then again, a fishhook is a small sharp wicked thing you can't get away from, however much you thrash.And of course, the only time I ever went fishing was in Texas, so there's that, too.

ril said...
When I was growing up in England, it was the peak of the "football hooliganism" era. I knew at least one person who (claimed he) did the lapel trick, but with razor blades, not fish hooks. Nasty.

Evil Editor said...
I believe there are ghosts.

BuffySquirrel said...
EE is haunted by the ghosts of manuscripts past.

Robin S. said...
Sean,I also believe there are ghosts. Probably because I want to believe.That, and you made them believablewith Will's trip down the ghost road with the little girl, when he was young. That was one of my favorite parts. I loved it.

Dave F. said...
I get the impression from a whole bunch of bloggin that between editors and agents, you need one to have faith in the book you wrote and not the book they want. (that might win me friends out there)

Dave F. said...
Well, AJ is his own personal ghost. There is no guarantee that anyone else experiences her. Whenever I read a newspaper story about someone who saw Jesus in a piece of toast, or a stain on wood, or a tree stump - I never doubt. That can be their personal revelation. As existentialist as I am, I still believe that all that spooky, religious stuff is personal and YOUR revelation is YOURS, and not mine.

Robin S. said...
So you've got a little art imitating life going on there, huh?Good!
Funny how some of refer to Will Kennedy as DK and some as Will.I'm wondering if that means anything.AND...I'd love to see Will in a second novel. Any chance of that?

Evil Editor said...
We shouldn't keep our guest more than an hour if he has anything else to do.

Dave F. said...
SEveral years ago, the magazine HEAVY METAL was asked shy it always but barely clothed women on its cover. They answered simply: sex sells more magazines.

Robin S. said...
Yeah- I wanted that damn Don gone.

Evil Editor said...
But not taking Josie and the kid with him.

Robin S. said...
Exactly. Leave Josie and the daughter with the one they should be with.

Wes said...
Don was a good antagonist. He had realistic reasons for his actions, and he was sympathetic in that he didn't know Will was shooting at a ghost and Don had lost his job.

Robin S. said...
I hated Don.

ril said...
The self-destructive loser. Yes.;)

Sean said...
I would actually like to write another book about Will. For one thing, those who suffered through his loserdom might enjoy seeing him get his act together a little bit.And, honestly, it's one of the few ideas I've had that lends itself to A Series Of Adventures.That said, you'd have to find some way to keep the books psychologically relevant, I think.The other small sad true fact is that I have to make a living and put kids through college, and unless a miracle occurs, nobody is going to offer me enough money to write another book about DK to do that.In my Alternate Identity as New Media Guru Dude, I have thought of bringing Will back for one of the online projects, but there are No Firm Plans right now.Oh--side story. So this is the only one of my books ever to be optioned by a film company: Jim Henson enterprises.They SAID they were thinking live action: but can't you just see Kermit as Will, with Miss Piggy as, as, as...(gives up)

Robin S. said...
Hey- I think this would make a powerful film in the right hands.And I think a second novel - with Will in the driver's seat- and learning how to be there - and that it isn't all it seems - complete with ghosts- would be amazingly good.

Dave F. said...
The SCI FI series FARSCAPE featured muppets. That was a Jim Henson Company thing.

Evil Editor said...
You have a long-standing offer from Evil Editor publications for the sequel. If it's funny.

ril said...
Sean,I did see from your website that you're doing some experimental(?), new-media type stuff. Is this the future of publishing, or just your future?

Sean said...
Re: new mediaYeah, it's the future, but not exactly the future of publishing. Traditional books aren't going away: but just as they lost market share to movies and TV, they are going to lose market share to storytelling that is built for the wired world.By pure fluke I fell down the rabbit hole into a chance to be in on the ground floor of this stuff, for which I will be eternally gratful.Cathy's Book is an example of bok 2.0 (kinda) -- Cathy's phone number is on the front, and you can dial it and hear her voicemail and leave a message. The websites in the book are real, and the email addresses, etc., so the story spills off the page and into the world of, frankly, blogs and forums and chit chat generally.The defining art form of the 21st century is going to acknowledge and participate in the interactive, community-oriented world of the web. To quote myself (sorry) the internet is a printing press, and that's the kind of art it wants to make.Now, that doesn't mean that books will go away, any more than movies will... but everyone will roll toward the side of the bed, and sooner or later some folks (epic poetry, anyone?) will fall out.

Evil Editor said...
That sounds cool. I assume everything we need to know to check it out is at your web site?

Robin S. said...
Sean,I see what you mean about the new stuff coming along - but God, I love books. I love the look, the feel, the keepablity, even the smell. How could that ever be fully replaced?

Wes said...
Would you consider a series like the Stephanie Plum series where you have a likeable loser who sees ghosts who get him wildly funny situations?

Evil Editor said...
Like shooting at his ex-wife's husband.

Sean said...
I have enjoyed the hell out of Stephanie Plum, personally (except the D & D murder game one, c'mon, Janet, get a grip)I think you could do something very fun with Will in a similar vein: but I also feel that I would want to... respect the gravitas of the first book. Does that make sense? I don't think it could be Pure Hijinx; there would have to be some emotional weight to it.And thanks, EE, for the editorial option. I will try to bring the funny. (But seriously, it's white trash texas: that's just funny, ain't it?)Passion Play, I should warn you, is *not* especially funny. ahem. Although it is, in a weird way, a precursor for PC.I saw someone mention that book a week or two ago. I wrote the first draft exactly half my life ago. Hard to believe anyone even knows it existed anymore...

ril said...
I think one of the things I liked about this book was that it was more about Will's ghosts than everybody else's ghosts. Like I said, I respect the ambiguity.

BuffySquirrel said...
I thought the scene where AJ almost gets DK to kill himself was the strongest part of the book. Truly scary.

Dave F. said...
AJ is a whole truckload of regret. DK or Will feels guilty that he couldn't prevent her death. He feels responsible for it. It's written all over his behavior.

Sean said...
I like the scene between AJ and DK too. (If like is the word I mean). I sat there breaking CDs in my hands to see what would happen, and when I wrote the last line-it's something like, "they say no love lasts forever. Sometimes it does." i got that creepy hair-crawling feeling on my neck, such as has only happened a couple of times for me.(Another one was a line from Resurrection Man: "God hissed through the vents at Auschwitz." )

Evil Editor said...
If not by just showing up, then through some very thoughtful answers/comments, I think you've made some new fans who will be reading your backlist. And those who forgot or couldn't make it will read the comments in the next few days.

BuffySquirrel said...
...and they shall rue the day they were not here!

Xenith said...
Thank you for coming & sharing with us, it makes the book much more meaningful now (in an extra layers way).

Sean said...
Thank you all very much for reading the book, and of course I am particularly grateful to our host. It was very nice that you guys decided to take a chance on the book, and I hope it mostly rewarded you for that.

ril said...
It was a great book that I probably would never have stumbled upon but for this event. I do plan to read more of your work. Thanks for indulging us.

Evil Editor said...
I hope all of our Chats go as well. Thanks again, sir.

uffySquirrel said...
Thanks, Sean!

Evil Editor said...
May the spike in sales from this push it onto the NYtimes bestseller list.

ril said...
Thanks, EE, for pulling this together.

Robin S. said...
Thanks so much!

BuffySquirrel said...
We should do this again!Oh, wait...we are doing it again!

Evil Editor said...
Yes soon.

Dave F. said...
Good discussion, EE. Thanks

Wes said...
Thanks, EE.

Evil Editor said...
Darryl Ponicsan ( pronounced PAHN-i-son ) (born May 26, 1938) is an American writer.Ponicsan is best known as the author of the 1971 novel The Last Detail, which was adapted into a 1973 movie starring Jack Nicholson; and for the 1973 novel and screenplay Cinderella Liberty, starring James Caan. The films of those two novels were multiple Oscar nominees, including best screenplay for The Last Detail (the screenplay of Cinderella Liberty was nominated for a Golden Globe).

His pen name is Anne Argula, author of our next book, Homicide My Own.
I think she (he) will be able to attend. See you next month.

BuffySquirrel said...
Nice job, EE :).

Brenda Bradshaw said...
I wasn't able to be here but I loved reading every single comment. Thanks to Sean and to EE. (I don't see an open option to me...~cries~)

Ali said...
Good discussion, sorry I missed it, I somehow managed to remember the time wrong. (Any chance you could post a reminder the day before for the next one, EE?).

Whirlochre said...
I wasn't able to join in with this one but I've clearly missed out on a throbber.As fledgling ventures go, this bodes well for the future.I'm sure there were problems along the way, but given that this is not a chat room, it seems to have gone well in terms of do-ability.EE has moderated and directed things admirably, the nimions have been concise and thoughtful with their questions and Sean has got the whole enterprise off to a good start with the generosity of his responses and insights.Great stuff.

sylvia said...
Sorry I missed it - I was a bit the worse for wear last night and didn't like to inflict myself on anyone. I did start reading then and just finished up today. Great stuff.

The Anne Argula/Homicide My Own Book Chat

talpianna said...
Can anyone explain to me the phrase "da frick"? What does it mean? (I do get the source, having studied Old English.) And is it one of her Pennsylvania expressions, or Spokane word?

Kiersten said...
Well, coming from the land of the Mormons, Frick is a substitute for those who don't actually want to use the F word.

Evil Editor said...
I made no attempt to translate, thinking it was a throwaway, like Canadians saying eh after everything... Maybe something like "you know?"

Dave F. said... Battlestar Galactica uses "frack" for most epithets. There is also a Frick Museum in Western PA

talpianna said... Well, it's obviously derived from the Anglo-Saxon "fricgean"; but is it an expletive, a description, or what?

talpianna said... The main Frick Museum is in New York City. It's got Holbein's portrait of Sir Thomas MOre; it was originally Henry Clay Frick's mansion. I think he made his money exploiting coal miners, so that's another possible derivation.

writtenwyrdd said... 'frick' is a very common exchange for the obvious swear word, as is 'frig'. You have Doctor Evil using it all the freaking time in The Spy Who Shagged Me. FWIW.

Dave F. said... a few colloqialisms to make the backgrounds of the characters not Oregon but Western Pennsylvania - a green weenie, Woi Yesus! My question is, should we say Yoi and Double Yoi? I can translate...Myron Cope says Yoi and Double Yoi. It's like Gosh and Gee Whiz. Green Weenie is another Myron Cope threat - like the Terrible Towel (y'all should own one).

Kiersten said... I'm telling you, it's an expletive that fills in for the f-word. I'm well versed in fake swearwords.

Evil Editor said... The narrator has several expressions I'm not familiar with, though it didn't affect my enjoyment of his voice.

talpianna said...
Speaking as someone also named Anne, I'm reasonably sure that the author is female....

Kiersten said... I loved the narration in this book. Although I could have done with fewer references to her nipples (seriously, they were like another character), I thought that approaching it from a gruff observer really made the whole reincarnation aspect of the story believable.

Robin S. said... I liked the narration, too, Kiersten, although I gotta say my 'fictive dream' was interrupted a bit with the 'da frick' stuff sometimes. I was surprised that it bugged me, to be honest. Normally, colloquialisms don't.

Evil Editor said... The author is male, but has chosen to use a female pen name for his mysteries.

Dave F. said... My thoughts on EE's question about pseudonym - would you read a book so involved in menopause by a man?

Dave F. said... I thought Quinn's body was a separate character in the story. At least her menopause was a separate presence.

talpianna said... I wonder why a male author would WANT to write from the PoV of a menopausal female? Did the story somehow require such a voice? Was it an experiment? Did he do it on a bet?

Dave F. said... Much of the earthiness (some might say crudeness) of the novel is fueled by Quinn's menopause. Is it possible that a male version of menopause fuels Odd's hidden memories?

talpianna said... Dave, Odd's only in his early thirties--too young for male menopause.

Evil Editor said... Though funny things happen in the book, I found myself laughing most at the voice, at the thoughts she had. I'll probably pick up the sequel just because I like her.

Kiersten said... Yeah, it was the strength of the narration that really sets it apart. It was hard trying to describe it to my husband without making it sound insane, but somehow the author pulls it off, and I think it's because s/he managed such a strong voice.

talpianna said... I didn't like the beginning, as it seemed awfully overwritten for the really mundane subject matter. But once the book really got into the mystery and the paranormal stuff, I got hooked. It's not a "fair play" mystery, but that's OK. And I got to like Quinn, even though she's apparently devoid of a first name.

Robin S. said... I liked Quinn, too, and the interplay between she and Odd, and their nutty-close relationship.

Kiersten said... Odd's pretty young though. I'll admit, I was actually kind of disappointed when the whole Odd remembering things from another lifetime thing first came up. I was suspecting he had big secrets from knowing the ferry time and being obsessed with the picture. But then the author made up for it, and I liked where he took it.

Robin said... I was glad to see there were sequels. And I enjoyed that it was not a traditional mystery- that it crossed genres, I suppose is what I mean.

talpianna said...
That's what I was going to ask next: How many of you plan to read and/or buy the sequel, which is out now?

Kiersten said...
If they have it at the library I'll check it out. I have very strict requirements for books that I'll purchase.

Evil Editor said... I wonder if book 2 is a straight mystery or if it, too, crosses genres.

Robin S. said... I hope it crosses genres - I'd like to see more of that. I enjoyed these characters, but part of what made them, came from their reincarnation experiences realized, so I'd like to think that would continue.

talpianna said... From amazon.com, on WALLA WALLA SUITE:Quinn, a newly divorced ex-cop, retains custody of her wild hot flashes, her twisted tongue, her fey sense of humor, and her propensity for trouble. Now trying to get a foothold as a P.I. in a new city, Quinn takes what she thinks will be a safe job with Vincent Ainge, to whom she is oddly attracted. Vincent, who has his own demons, is the only mitigation investigator in the Northwest working to save the lives of convicted killers from ending at the gallows in Walla Walla state prison. When a young secretary named Eileen vanishes, the woman’s boss hires Quinn to track her down. What looks like a missing-person case turns out to be anything but, sucking into its wake Vincent, his demented father, Eileen’s barely legitimate boss, her sexually vulnerable mother, a serial rapist and possible serial killer, and, of course, Quinn herself. Quinn’s improvised investigation takes her to the dangerous dark corners of the human psyche and casts suspicion where she least expects it, which will ignite a burst of violence and a resolution that readers won’t see coming.

Kiersten said... That's disappointing. I was just about to say I thought it was cool that she decided to stay with her husband. And where's Odd??

talpianna said... Looks like AA has switched focus, as not only is Odd gone, but so are the career, the city, and the spouse. There also seems to be no paranormal element.I might well pick this one up. Gee, I miss AllDirect.com. Overstock.com is likely to have it cheapest.

Evil Editor said... Possibly the husband and Odd are there but not worthy of mention in the summary.

Robin S. said... If her husband was getting it on with his assistant in book one, and my money is on - he was - he deserved his dumping. I hope she did the dumping, anyway.

Kiersten said... Newly divorced? No hubby. But at least that other main character, her menopause, made the cut.

talpianna said... Well, then, EE, they can't be too important to the plot. It may say if we read further in the Amazon summaries and reviews.

Evil Editor said... They saw that duty, but in more than one life.

talpianna said... Dave, are you suggesting that "duty" is the THEME of the book? I didn't think so at all. I thought it was finding out the truth about oneself.

Evil Editor said... Sidebar, for those who didn't see it at the end of the last chat: Darryl Ponicsan ( pronounced PAHN-i-son ) (born May 26, 1938) is an American writer. Ponicsan is best known as the author of the 1971 novel The Last Detail, which was adapted into a 1973 movie starring Jack Nicholson; and for the 1973 novel and screenplay Cinderella Liberty, starring James Caan. The films of those two novels were multiple Oscar nominees, including best screenplay for The Last Detail (the screenplay of Cinderella Liberty was nominated for a Golden Globe).His pen name is Anne Argula, author of our next book, Homicide My Own.

BuffySquirrel said... Really, The Last Detail?*boggles*

talpianna said... Gee, those are famous, though I've never seen either of them. Wonder why the pen name, other than he wanted to write from a female point of view.

Kiersten said... I just thought Stacey's mom was such an idiot that the whole subplot bugged me.

Robin S. said... I thought of Stacy's mom as one of those lost souls types.

Dave F. said... Let me make a couple comments on the opening 289 words. Odd Gunderson accepts his visions and acts on them. Odd is accepting of many things. The author says: "He accepted the town of his father in the same way he accepted his father's politics, as a given until taken, or worn away; the same way he accepted his father's religion, an unsmiling Lutheranism." That's a major league foreshadow on the first page considering the final revelations of the story.

Evil Editor said... Maybe they were together in lives previous to Korea.

BuffySquirrel said... Why worry about solving the case? If everyone's going to be reincarnated anyway, they can solve it themselves in their next lives.

Xenith said... The whole body thing, beyond the menopause even, felt like "Hey, I can write a female -- see all my cool inside details!!"(Do anyone's nipples go spring!)

Kiersten said... Yeah, I found it distracting.

Kiersten said... I think it's too easy to focus on that when writing women. We're not all wimps and slave to our hormones; I've done two pregnancies and two c-sections without complaining or freaking out or buying lots of fireworks.Although I did always crave slushies...I guess that aspect of the novel bothers me more now that I know it was written by a man.

BuffySquirrel said... Quinn is written by a MAN!

Dave F. said... Let me return to the opening 300 words: There's a lot in those words. Quinn is in turmoil. To quote: "searing uncurlings beneath the skin." Besides the obvious, "No method of transportation had yet been invented that could get this one willingly to that great place beyond city limits known as Away." She feels guilty for her loss of sex drive. She feels this assignment is "punishment for something done wrong." Much like her menopause has taken away the closeness of her marriage. She says a paragraph or two later "Neither Odd nor I knew why we were so uncomfortable in Spokane." And by the end of the novel, she discovers a larger plan and is transformed.

Evil Editor said... It would be interesting to ask why this was published by a small press when the author has major credits, and it was good enough to get an Edgar nomination. I note that the sequel had a different publisher.

Dave F. said... I noticed that EE - It's like this was an experimental writing.

talpianna said... EE, I don't know how many books the author has published other than the ones you cited. It could be that his main publisher had right of first refusal and decided they didn't want to publish it. That scene with the oral sex is pretty iffy for a general audience, considering that the girl is fourteen.

Evil Editor said... The whole thing is iffy with the 14 yr old. Fifteen would be better.

Dave F. said... That "love" affair is just awful. I'd say really nasty stuff about it but I have a relative who had a child at 15.

talpianna said... Dave, in what way is she "transformed"? She has insight into reincarnation, but she doesn't seem to be about to make changes in her life. She brushes off Odd's suggestion that they go away together.

Robin S. said... I agree Dave- I think this is excellent foreshadowing.Why would she/he do that, EE - think she/he couldn't drum up interest, initially, or is there something else that could be different?

Dave F. said... Her transformation?And at the end of the novel she is living happily with her husband. she says she's told him the story and all that gives the impression of intimacy and familial life returned to normal. Plus, her attitude seems much improved from the raging beast she was.

BuffySquirrel said... "Raging beast"? Good grief. Dave is shocked by a book driven by the menopause instead of by some guy's dick.

Dave F. said... Oh for {bleep} sake NO: Dave is shocked by a book driven by the menopause instead of by some guy's dick.I did giggle at the menopause but where Odd is accepting, Quinn is aflame with more than just menopause. She'd become unhinged in life as if she drifting and aimless and without purpose. The solving of the murder changes that. I might even argue that this book ahs the perfect cinderella ending I've been too near too many women going through menopause and to tell the God's honest truth, several have been raging beasts using whatever authority they have to punish the world for their body. Quinn never stops complaining until the last pages of the novel. Then she begins to understand her Karmic previous life. Quinn makes the biggest deal of her physical condition.

Evil Editor said... It's better when the author's here to clarify stuff. Instead of choosing books that got award nominations I could choose books whose authors agree in advance to attend.

Robin S. said... I agree, EE. Hearing from the author and bouncing our ideas off of him/her to find out the answer is really good.Although - I have to say- this is good, too! And - I read a book I wouldn't have found otherwise - which I love.

Evil Editor said... Tal was clearly a mole in a previous life. Who/what was everyone else here?

talpianna said... Whaddaya mean, "a mole in a PREVIOUS life"? Have you taken a good look at my avatar?

Kiersten said... I was an editor, and am being punished for my ruthless rejecting.

Robin S. said... I think before being Robin, I was a cat, or me, living somewhere else. Another country.

Evil Editor said... I was Herman Melville.

talpianna said... Now that I know that "Anne Argula" is a pseudonym, I keep thinking it should have been "Lettice Arugula."

Robin S. said... Call me Ishmael.

Kiersten said... A lot of her actions were really irrational, like the naked spanking. (Typing with one hand instead of leaving.)

Evil Editor said... Perhaps her actions were being guided by another force.

Evil Editor said... She really didn't have any reason to buy so many fireworks. The plan hadn't been formulated yet.

BuffySquirrel said... Oh, but menopausal women always buy fireworks to excess. It's well known!

Xenith said... What was the point of the fireworks, anyway?

Dave F. said... Anyone want to take on the image of the fireworks and the firework sales stands? Telling your kid to sleep in one while armed seemed excessive...

talpianna said... The fireworks-buying was a ploy to keep the deputy's attention so he wouldn't discover his wife and Odd having their reunion. I think using them in the denouement was just Ibsenism (the shotgun over the fireplace).

Evil Editor said... I know it was a ploy, but she blew hundreds of dollars. She could have shopped more slowly, not knowing the fireworks would come in handy.

talpianna said... I thought the use of the fireworks was one of the weakest points in the book. After being subjected to a barrage of them, the killer just carries on with his plan to shoot Quinn and Odd; it apparently never occurs to him that there might be witnesses around (who set off the fireworks), and although his nerves were shaken, he's immediately perfectly calm and cool again.

Kiersten said... Seriously, EE. I guess she did end up getting her money's worth though.

Xenith said... I wasn't impressed with the end, from the too many passengers in the car stuff to the this is dangerous but "um um here's a way to justify it" trap that would work better on the screen

Evil Editor said... I assume there's an island with fireworks stands and a casino that the author's been to, as he lives in Washington. I wouldn't be surprised if there were lots of Roberts.

talpianna said... As for why the fireworks, I think it was just taking advantage of an odd fact: the only place you could legally buy fireworks was on an Indian reservation. Same with the casino. Here in Arizona Indian casinos are really big business--provided a lot of medical care, education, homes, etc. for the tribes.

Dave F. said... Well, Quinn calls up her long-suffering leiutenant and has one of the most vulgar conversations I've ever read. It's when they get into the cottages. The poor man must be treading on eggs with the way she blows a cork at him. She's the fireworks.

Kiersten said... I don't know, Dave, maybe it's the police culture (and yes, that's a huge generalization). My husband did a DUI ride-along, and he said he's never heard so much swearing in his life. He was really entertained.

talpianna said... I think Kiersten's right. I'm not a big fan of profanity (no pun intended), but I recognize that it's sometimes significant for characterization. For example, Eve Dallas, the homicide cop in Nora Roberts's J.D. Robb series, is very foul-mouthed (though I notice she never uses the C-word); but it fits because she's a streetwise cop. If she were, for example, an editor, it would be different.And one thing that I WILL NOT ACCEPT is four-letter words in an omniscient-author PoV!

Dave F. said... Quinn doesn't curse profanely.There's no GD or "F" or other 4 letter words. She talks in low and vulgar terms and innuendos. She makes sure he understands. Notice his last message: "Tell those nimrods to get home..." I wish I would have written that segment out and kept it.

talpianna said... Orginally from the Biblical Nimrod, a mighty hunter, it has come to mean socially inadequade.Or stupid.I haven't come across this before. It's apparently US-only slang.

Kiersten said... Of course it is, Nimrod.(JUST KIDDING.)

Dave F. said...If someone walked up to me and told me secrets from my childhood or HS past, I'd be browning my drawers and leaving a puddle. Odd addressed him with the words of his dead lover (or something like that). That's enough to shake the rock of Gilbratar The Indians believe in reincarnation. That makes the story work. and Chief Shining Pony has the final say - Judge, jury and executioner. And he does not regret his decision.

Kiersten said...
The chief and the inn owner were good red herrings.

BuffySquirrel said...
I kept waiting for the real reason Odd knew all that stuff to come out.

talpianna said...
Dave, where did it say that the Indians believed in reincarnation? Other than the end quote from the Indian (or Tibetan) holy man?And I think the Indian names were very implausible. I know something of how Indians choose names, and these were inconsistent.

Dave F. said... No reincarnation as Eastern Mystics see it. (If I do bad work, I'll come back as a worm) - or (If I do good works I'll achieve Nirvana), they believe that the spirits of the dead linger and can return. It's the concept of "fated" love... It's more like - I knew you in a previous life and we are fated to be together... The damaged Spirits lingered around the horrendous murder and now manifest to the living to have justice. The world is equity again.

Kiersten said...
Police cliches and American Indian cliches. It's easy to write.

Kiersten said...
There was also a certain notion of people being interchangable. The Roberts being an example.

talpianna said...
Maybe I would have liked this book better if I hadn't just read a really superb psychological mystery/thriller before picking it up.

Dave F. said...
Just because we deal with Openings every day, here are the first 157 words. Neither of these two cops had ever pulled that kind of duty before. One of them a man, the other a woman; one young the other not so young; one dour and of few words, and the other more dour than he, but with a mouth when a mouth was needed. Why them?The man was the young one, Odd Gunderson, and he hated living in Spokane, though he was born and raised there. He accepted the town of his father in the same way he accepted his father's politics, as a given until taken, or worn away; the same way he accepted his father's religion, an unsmiling Lutheranism. The woman was a transplant from the coal regions of Pennsylvania, via Los Angeles, where she had gone because of "Dragnet" reruns, and where she became a cop, and where she would still happily be a cop, cruising Hollywood Boulevard, if she hadn't married a pharmacist from Spokane.

Robin S. said... Dave, I like that opening. It gives you a lifetime in a snippet.

Dave F. said... That, is a magnificent opening. I said earlier it foreshadows so much of the book. It's really, really tight and it intrigues the reader. The REST of the front page is: Odd had ready enthusiasm for an impromptu road trip out of town. All he needed was his tapes, which consisted , the older one regrettably found out, of "leaving-town-music" and "Rolling-into-town-music" and "Driving-in-the-lonely-night-music." The older one, the woman, did not like music and had no tapes, nor any enthusiasm, for any trip at all. No method of transportation had yet been invented that could get this one willingly to that great place beyond city limits known as Notice how you just HAVE to find out that next word. The typographer earned his money that day.

Kiersten said... I liked the opening, too, but it was kind of jarring when the POV switched.

talpianna said...
I think what bothered me most about Quinn was her lack of professionalism. She's been a cop for almost 20 years; but she let herself repeatedly be distracted not only by her menopausal symptoms but by circumstances that arise. She should have more self control by now.

Evil Editor said...
As far as she knew it was grunt work that she shouldn't have been assigned.

talpianna said...
She EXPECTED grunt work. She mentioned in the book that she wasn't a detective, and their assignments usually consisted of picking up drunks, breaking up domestic disturbances, and the like.

Evil Editor said... After 20 years of grunt work, how much professionalism are you going to have while doing more grunt work?

Robin S. said...
EE, as an editor, when you were reading Homicide, did anything hit you that you'd have liked to see doen differently?

Kiersten said...
Great question, Robin.

Evil Editor said...
I thought there were too many typos, for starters. And there were a few places where I had trouble with who was talking. I liked that it was short and to the point. Quinn telling the story for the last time, not some 3rd person narrator embellishing with description etc.

Robin S. said... Yeah, EE. I liked that the narrator's life intrueded on her - on what she was supposed to be doing professionally, etc. The real time feeling.

talpianna said...
EE, you naive innocent! Even NORA ROBERTS doesn't get good copyediting nowadays!

Dave F. said... I did appreciate the brevity. That shouldn't surprise anyone. I also liked the singular POV of Quinn. Her character was attractive in many ways and fun to read about. I didn't notice typos.

Kiersten said...
EE, when you read, is it hard to turn off your editor lenses?I still analyze everything I read and look for good theses that I could base a paper around, and the support for those. It's annoying.

ME said...
Hi! I didn't read the book, I just read 134 comments (I love to lurk)

Xenith said... Reading the book would have been quicker, ME

ME said... and if it's not out of line I'd like to mention something about Cinderella Liberty?

Evil Editor said...
What about Cin Lib? Not that I remember anything about it.

Robin S. said...
Yeah, Dave. sorry. I should have said before. The mention of the leaving songs was good, when I looked back. I reread first pages when I'm finished with a book, to see the wraparound effect - if there is or if there isn't one.I also read the last pages first. Weird, but there you go.

BuffySquirrel said...
I'd like EE to have done one thing differently--chosen a different book!

Evil Editor said... Buffy hated the book.

Kiersten said... I didn't love it, but I thought it was interesting. Who thinks, "I know, I'll write a cop novel, only include menopause, a decades-old murder, and reincarnation! Oh yeah, and let's have a sympathetic pedophile. And fireworks."

Dave F. said...
I will say one thing that disappointed me, I guessed the ending on page 66 out of 220.

talpianna said...
I think the names of the songs should have been mentioned.

Evil Editor said... When authors aren't showing up I should allow volunteers who really loved the book to direct the discussion.

Robin S. said...
Oh- I like that idea about directing discussion, so we can really dig in. Although I do think we manage to do pretty well.

Kiersten said...
You mean like a moderator? I kind of like the chaos. It makes it easier to multitask.

BuffySquirrel said...
Well, if CW doesn't turn up for "To Say Nothing of the Dog", can I volunteer, EE? Much book love here!

Kiersten said... If Meyer's a no-show, I'll volunteer for Twilight. I've read it three times (blushes) and engaged in a lot of dialogue about it.

talpianna said...
EE, I don't agree with your policy of choosing books that none of us, including you, have read. I'd prefer to go by recommendations--especially mine!

Robin S. said... I think we're asking for trouble if we pick the books. I'm guessing we all have vastly different tastes.

Evil Editor said...
I chose six books I hadn't read so that I would have to read them too. As they were all award nominess, I figured they'd all be good.

BuffySquirrel said... Hmm, EE. Very perspicacious in one regard, but you surely didn't really think award winners would necessarily be good! p.s. "The Road" won lots of awards. And it is good!

ME said... Well the library didn't have it and I want to spend my Amazon cert on something good. (Although I was tempted to round out my collection of Evil Editor books!!) Anyway, The Cinder Lib thing is funny because even though I read that book 30 years ago (I did just catch the flick recently) I clearly remember a subplot about hemmorhoids (medical issue) and the author's voice. I think it was 3rd omni for the most part. I'm a bit intrigued to read those comments regarding the menopause symptoms, and I wonder if the author's ability to "write as a woman" comes from his own personal relationship(s). Also, thanks, Dave, for the 1st 150 because I found that very interesting. I will keep a look out for this title at the library. Sorry the author didn't show, EE.

Xenith said... At the start, where we're finding out about the characters background rather than the story (and then their assignment and then they go for a drive). All this is, at best, peripheral to the central story

Robin S. said...
Oh - I see, xenith. I guess we're different on that one - I think the voice was engaging even in the intro. Sometimes I just go by 'feel' - story or not- if I like the way it sounds to my 'inner ear', and I feel that way about most of this one, although for me, the dialog, dialog, dialog got a bit old sometimes. Sometimes the dialog moved me along too fast - faster than I really wanted to go. Sometimes I wanted to take longer, so I could think through what was happening as I read, not later.

Evil Editor said...Time's up. Thanks for coming, and see you next month for Twilight, by Stephanie Meyer.

The Stephenie Meyer/Twilight Book Chat

May 29, 2008:


Kiersten said... I thought I'd start out with a very brief background on Meyer and Twilight, if that's okay. It's pretty interesting.

Yank in Scotland said... Hi from Scotland, where it's 11pm and still (just) twilight.
(I love summer.)

Kiersten said... So, aspiring writers, prepare to pull your hair out by the roots in exasperation. Stephenie Meyer, young stay at home mom to three small boys, woke up one morning with a very vivid dream still in her head--two people sitting in a meadow, talking about how they were falling in love with each other and this was bad because the boy was a vampire. So she started writing. And kept writing. And--I kid you not--six months later she had a finished manuscript, Jodi Reamer at Writers House for an agent, and a book that sold at auction for $100,000.

Evil Editor said... And then she wrote Twilight.

Kiersten said... Ha ha, EE, the book was Twilight. Sorry.

YiS said... Wow, I didn't know that. Good for her! -

Robin S. said... That must have been one vivid daydream.

Kiersten said... Yeah, she said she couldn't get the image out of her head, and after she wrote it down she started crafting a story around it. That dream is now chapter thirteen of the book. She currently has legions of fans rabidly devoted to her, and each of her four books (three in the twilight series, which will conclude this summer with the fourth book, Breaking Dawn, and an unrelated sci-fi book, Host, that came out at the beginning of May) have hit #1 on the NYT Bestseller list.

sylvia said... *turns green*

Robin S. said... Maybe we should take a page out of her book, and write about our, um, dreams.

Kiersten said... You dream EE is a vampire?

sylvia said... My dreams are way too bizarre for public consumption and I'm not convinced that Robin's are ready for prime time ;)

Robin S. said... And yeah, Sylvia- mine are, you know. Well, you know. they might well be bestsellers, though. Maybe I'll add a chapter to mine. Anyway- back to Twilight.

Kiersten said... Other biographical info on Meyer that actually plays pretty heavily into the narrative is that she is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka Mormon). So, if anyone is interested in how that influenced aspects of the novel, I'm a good resource ; )

YiS said... Kiersten - actually, I *was* wondering about how her religious background may have influenced the novels, so please do tell.

Robin S. said... OK - I already have questions - but I'll wait - because I'm good.

Kiersten said... No, please ask! I just wanted to give the background first of all so that we could all scream out our frustration that some people really are overnight successes in publishing and because I think it's interesting. Did any of you see that Meyer was recently named one Time's 100 most influential people of 2008. ??

Evil Editor said... Before we discuss what's so good about it, here's what I didn't like about the book (which I read on planes and in airports). I think there's way too much detail in the first two thirds. Every little thing anyone says or does is reported. Then at the end, she writes off the villain in one sentence: Alice and (forgot name) took care of him. How about some detail on defeating this fearsome vampire? Also, while I'm not as anti-adverb as some, I stopped counting adverbs when it went over 2000.

Kiersten said... Oh, don't worry EE, I'm actually not a rabidly devoted fan. I have a LOT of criticism of these books. Meyer is interesting because she writes sci fi and fantasy almost action free. She focuses so much on how her characters are feeling and the relationships that action is relegated to a distant second. I mean, she creates these awesomely powerful creatures and doesn't even describe their fight? In a later book she does describe a fight between two vampires, but she definitely is not good at writing action.

A. said... I agree with EE. I love Meyer's books and think she's great at making us care about her characters... but she has a tendency to over write.

Kiersten said... She is definitely WAY over descriptive. And she is very repetitive--my fifteen year old brother suggests a fun game of counting how many times Bella stops breathing or describes her heartbeat. I guess you could even make it a drinking game if you were so inclined.

sylvia said... I really disliked the beginning of the book - if it wasn't for the bookchat, I don't think I'd have bothered to continue. The protag was just so whiney and unhappy about everything. It wasn't just that she hated Forks but her entire tone towards her mother and her father and the weather. It wasn't until she started to focus in on Edward that the story started to work for me.

YiS said... My main gripe about Twilight was: oh, let's have a baseball game in the storm. Fun baseball game. Oh look, here are other vampires coming to see us. We must protect Bella. Oh no, here is a very bad vampire. Oh no, he wants Bella.- and that's basically what triggers not only the denouement of this book, but the action of the next two. Seemed awfully random.

A. said... Okay... personally, I enjoyed the baseball game :) My biggest gripe mirrors Sylvia's... Bella is a bit on the helpless side, and Edward doesn't help her gain independence by protecting her every second of the day...

sylvia said... I didn't mind the other vampires showing up (they did talk about them earlier) but I did feel a bit "Huh?" with the whole "He's a tracker" thing. I never quite understood what that was supposed to mean, other than that they knew he'd be obsessive.

Evil Editor said... I was glad something triggered something. I wasn't happy they were going to play ball because it seemed like filler, but it actually started the plot moving finally.

YiS said... EE - fair point, but the huge significance seemed to, er, come out of left field. In three pages of dialogue, it goes from 'baseball game' to 'BELLA IN HORRIBLE DANGER RUN RUN RUN'. -

Kiersten said... Yeah, it is surprising how long it takes her to get to the baseball game/threat that moves the plot forward from "Oh, let's talk about what my favorite gemstones are because that's how you know if you love someone." Here is my main criticism of the book: I think Bella and Edward's relationship is very destructive, co-dependent, and actually has most of the warning flags of an abusive relationship. And young girls all over the country fantasize about Edward and how romantic it is. Also, here is how their relationship develops: Edward: "Oh, that girl smells so good I want to kill her. I better not." Bella: "Wow, he's really hot but he looks like he hates me." Edward: "I can't read your mind, how fascinating." Bella: "He's still really hot and he doesn't hate me any more. I love him. I think he might still want to kill me and he keeps giving criptic hints that he's dangerous, but I don't care because I LOVE HIM SO MUCH EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE ONLY HAD FOUR CONVERSATIONS!" Edward and Bella: "We love each other."

Robin S. said... Yeah, Kiersten- this is the dangerous bad guy with a heart of gold thing. Which in reality - bites.

Kiersten said... That's what bothers me about it, Robin, is WHY it appeals. Let's look at it this way: Say Blondie meets a new guy at school. He's incredibly moody--one minute, he acts like he hates her, the next he's flirting, but there's always a subtext to his conversation with him hinting that he's dangerous and could hurt her. They have maybe four, five conversations, and Blondie decides she doesn't care what is wrong with him, she loves him. Even if it means being with him could get her hurt or even killed, she doesn't care. Then, after all of this, she finds out he's been sneaking into her room at night watching her. This is the point where you CALL THE POLICE. Being stalked is neither sexy nor romantic.

Robin S. said... Yep. Actually- we've come close to that - with Robin Jr. A real asshole. So many women deal with this - that the bad guy is the exciting one. When he's really just a big ass. I agree. Not a good signal for young women. But it obviously DOES appeal - some things never seem to change.

sylvia said... I can see Kiersten's point but that's a big seller in romance novels in general, really. The whole love/hate mix and "I should stay away from you but I can't." Having accepted that the book was focused around her wanting to sleep with him (guess she better watch that time of the month), it didn't particularly bother me that it wasn't a healthy relationship. To an extent, that was the point.

Robin S. said... I thought (no kidding) this book was a long and plotted piece of foreplay.

sylvia said... I'm laughing aloud re: the drinking game. I did enjoy the book once she perked up - although I can see Robin's point about it being a long piece of foreplay. I did feel frustrated that it took AGES to find out if his desire for her was JUST blood or actually sexual at all.

Robin S. said... Bluntly- I think the foreplay aspect is the reason it best sells. The dream she woke up with gives me a big hint - that may well be true. I'm not saying it wasn't a fun read, (and there was the enjoyment factor thing)-but not my usual cup of tea. Kudos to S.M. for her success. It was obviously a successful dream that appeals to a bajillion females.

Kiersten said... Ah yes, the foreplay aspect. I guess this is part of the appeal to teenage girls. Bella's mom moves across the country and Bella lives with her dad who watches sports or is gone ALL THE TIME and doesn't notice that she has a boy in her room all night every night. But since Edward won't sleep with her, the threat/menace of sex is removed and replaced entirely with romance/foreplay, making it "safe." As far as James' abilities, I don't think she had that figured out very well in this book, because in the next couple of books she kind of scrambles to explain different vampire's special abilities. James is apparently a very good tracker.

YiS said... Kiersten - I wasn't paying close attention to the vampires' abilities but there did seem a whiff of (as I believe the HP fans say) retconning. Which is completely understandable; unless you have every last world detail plotted out, things are going to need changing. But the vampire superpowers did get a little too convenient, sometimes, esp. in later books.

Robin S. said... The sleeping together every night with no touching. That's when the foreplay aspect REALLY took off for me. Bluntly - that boy wouldn't have made it through the night with me, virgin or not at the time, without some action. And I think that's what most young girls are thinking - not just not-young-girl me.

Kiersten said... Ah, Robin, this is because you weren't raised Mormon, where sex is an absolute and complete NO until you are married. So having that physical closeness without actual intercourse is a Mormon girl's dream come true. She's not actually breaking any rules. Granted, Bella is not a Mormon, but Meyer is, and I think that Bella is pretty much Meyer as a teenager.

Robin S. said... But I was raised Catholic - back in the day- the strictures were just as strict. (We had the nuns and the priests and all the confession crap, you know.) I still did what I wanted. I think basically no religion would've stopped a person like me from doing precisely what I felt like doing. And again I say- Steph may be a traditionally-thought-of good girl in public- but her dreams are betraying her actual wishes. (And I'd kill if mine did the same. But mine are nastier.)

Kiersten said... lol, Robin. It's true. I have very violent stories in my head that I'm too embarrassed to write because of what my mom might think.

sylvia said... Hmm, I was like Bella tbh. My first serious boyfriend was happy to cuddle and snuggle up for hours. The next guy I dated assumed getting into bed together meant sex - I was shocked and disappointed. So I can see the appeal in that - and I would have, at the appropriate reading age.

Kiersten said... Sylvia, excellent point. Because really, other than that he can't read her mind, what does Bella have going for her? She's moderately smart. Not talented, not outgoing, not athletic, very insecure, not especially pretty...pretty much you are left wondering why DOES he like her?

Robin S. said... Yeah- why DID Edward like her? The scent started it, right? This thing where it's the girl's fault she's attacked again. Hmmmph.

Kiersten said... Yes, Robin, exactly! Classic abuser!

A. said... I think we have to remember that the narrator is Bella and she has a very low self-image. I imagine she has to be better than she thinks she is. All the other boys at school seem to be into her, so she must be desirable in human ways.

sylvia said... I think a. is right as well in that Bella is narrating so of course she'll constantly be putting herself down. But it would be nice if Edward had something specific that focused him on her, other than her blood scent.

Evil Editor said... In Homicide My Own last month we were saying ewww when a 14-yr.old girl was involved with a 30-something guy. What about Bella and a 108 year old guy?

Robin S. said... EE- I never thought about the age difference - as Edward was 'still' 18. sort of.

A. said... Well, EE, to be fair... Edward can't really date girls his own age :) Yuck.

Evil Editor said... But mentally and emotionally Edward is not a teenager.

Kiersten said... No, and I think Meyer tries to get around that with her assertion that Bella is an "old soul" and really mature. But really, where is that demonstrated? None of her actions seem very mature to me.

Robin S. said... True, EE. He's crafty. Eternally young. And a bad guy. And hot. And he'll never be not hot or have a poochy belly. Damn. He's perfect. Bring on the nibbling.

sylvia said... I did think about the "age difference" - his experience and worldly knowledge so outstripped hers. That bothered me more really as between that and superspeed and reading the thoughts of people around her, there wasn't any real balance between them. "Yeah, but you make me laugh."

A. said... I think it's difficult to say what Edward is mentally and emotionally. No, he's not really 17. But on the other hand, he's never had a real relationship, either. It's new to him, too. He also socializes with other humans very little. His only real experiences past the age of 17 have been with other vampires...

Evil Editor said... He's old enough to know what's really important in a relationship. Technically, he's an old geezer.

A. said... I find it interesting that these books appeal to women of all ages. Have you ever been to a Meyer book signing? My mother is a high school teacher and we took some of her students to a signing here. There were hundreds of screaming teenagers, but there were also plenty of older women, as well.

Dave F. said... I'm late to the discussion. I made it 15 pages into the book, FOUR TIMES.

Kiersten said... Ha ha, Dave, you are definitely not the target audience.

Dave F. said... Knew that. I usually can force my way through a book. Worse, I have a niece who had a baby at 16. I look (with good reason) poorly on older guys and teen girls.

sylvia said... I dug into the book about halfway through I think - stayed up late to read more. I ordered the next book on the basis of that, but I'll be really annoyed if her balance issues don't get dealt with soon!

Kiersten said...Sylvia, New Moon will make you want to scream in frustration. It is NOT good and Bella is a freaking co-dependent IDIOT. But Eclipse is better.

Evil Editor said... Are Bella and Edward the stars of all the books?

A. said... EE: They are the main characters, but there are plenty of other characters who become important. I read in an interview of Meyer's that she's wrapping up the Edward/Bella story in the fourth book and will then focus on some of the other characters more.

Kiersten said...Yes, Bella and Edward are the focus of all of the books.

YiS said... EE - yes. (Well, the first three, but the fourth is the final told from Bella's pov, so I'm guessing it's all about Her And Edward TLF.) And there will also be Twilight retold from Edward's pov (!). -

Kiersten said...Let's talk about all of the descriptions of killing her that are given in rape terminology. Vampire stories are classically about sex, anyway, right? When Edward is talking about the first time she came into the room and he says, "It was all I could do not to lure you into the woods and take you right then." Hello, take you? Yikes. So if you are going for the whole sucking blood as sex metaphor, he basically wanted to rape her the moment he met her, but then when he got to know her he fell in love with her instead, so he could keep it under control. I know that teenagers won't read this much into it, but it really does kind of disturb me.

Robin S. said... EE, do men wanna be bitten by a hot woman? Be honest. Remember - we don't know who you are.

Evil Editor said... No, we don't. It hurts.

Robin S. said... That's what I thought, EE.

sylvia said... I'm not convinced you have to like the idea of being bitten to like the tension brought up by his desire and denial of her blood.

sylvia said... I spent half the book convinced that Bella was supernatural (and that Forks/Charlie was the key). It answered so many questions - Forks weird micro-climate, her parents being so not-parent-like, balance issues, why he can't read her thoughts AND what he sees in her. I mean, I'm not saying I wanted her to turn out to be a zombie or anything, but...

Dave F. said... Beware of that little seduction game. He says: "I'm going to respect your wish for no sex." His actions are to get her hot, bothered and naked. Then as we all know, things happen.

Kiersten said... Sylvia, in later books there are hints that Bella is unusual in some sort of way, but she doesn't have powers or anything.

Kiersten said... A, Meyer has explained that by saying when she grew up in Phoenix no boys noticed her, but when she went to school in Provo, Utah, she was a lot hotter because of the comparison. Which is weird, because I went to BYU, and you will never find more cute, perky, thin, absolutely dolled up girls. Because they are all looking for husbands. Anyway. That's how she justifies why Bella is so desirable.

A. said... Well, it may be the new girl to a small town thing...

sylvia said... I had a friend who describes a similar experience, moving from Southern California to Idaho. I think big town -> small town move can increase attractiveness because you seem that much more worldly. Although that wouldn't work on Edward, obviously.

Robin S. said... You're totally on top of your subject - K. Good for you, girl! What a fun discussion. yep- the blood suck thing is foreplay while the suspense 'mounts', then the sex act, the taking of the flesh and blood - and it's an act of supreme selfishness. Like rape.

Dave F. said... Let ma also defend men. Even in gay novels where guy vampire creates guy vampire, it's not seduction or rape. The men in vampire stories are usually flunkies serving as feeding bags for the queen vampire.

YiS said... So, any bets on whether there's going to be an explanation for why Edward can't read Bella's thoughts, or is it going to remain a kind of vague indication that they are Meant To Be? Also, her father really becomes a cliche. Not Meyer working her A game. 'Hmm, I need him out of the way. There's a sporting event on! Again!'

Evil Editor said... It's her first novel. She had no A game.

A. said... The inability to read her mind comes up in later books.

YiS said... EE - true, but it doesn't get any better in subsequent books! Another item for the drinking game, maybe? -

sylvia said... YiS - thank you. And makes sense, but she MUST have had the further books in her head, considering all the stuff set up that must mean something - so the reader is waiting for the other shoe to drop. The references are too blatant to all have been just pieces of the first story that she decided to expand upon later, I think.

Kiersten said... Yeah, but she had to scramble to explain why Edward's power (and other vampires' powers) don't work with Bella, but Alice could see her future and Jasper could affect her emotions. I don't think she had that planned out.

YiS said... Sylvia and Kiersten - all the stuff about Jacob must have been planned from Book 1; it's all essential and tightly embedded. -

Kiersten said... Yeah, I think the Jacob stuff was planned.

Kiersten said... Yes, in later books it goes more into why he can't read her thoughts. I'm expecting a payoff with that in the last book, but I think it was just convenient for the first book and then she worked it more in the next books.

Robin S. said... Hey. I'm working my ass off to have an A game, Sparky. If I was good with a B game- it would already be out there. But now- I need to add some of my amazing night dreams - so it will best sell. Or - scare the living hell out of every agent in Manhattan.

Evil Editor said... Sharks. I keep telling you, add some sharks.

Robin S. said... Miss K - is the fourth book gonna wrap it all up? Will readers know all the answers?

A. said... Meyer has plans to write Twilight from Edward's perspective... I think that will be a far more interesting novel.

Kiersten said... Book four will resolve the will they or won't they question and wrap up their story, yes.

Robin S. said... And I agree- Sylvia- the foreplay doesn't need biting. Though eventually - it needs some kind of culmination. I assume that's part of what the series deal with.

Kiersten said...Robin, the sex issues are addressed a lot more in three.

Dave F. said... AS for writing your dreams. That's a good idea. Write from way deep inside your mind. Write the most sincere thoughts you have. It shows when you let the walls and barriers down that far and expose your "soul"...that sounds so hackneyed, cliche'd and trite. But it's true.

Dave F. said... I am guessing that Bella never becomes a vampire...

Evil Editor said... He would have had to make her a vampire to save her life if he hadn't been able to suck every drop of venom out of her bloodstream. Wouldn't some of that venom have gotten beyond Edward's ability to suck it out? They stood around long enough discussing what to do.

Kiersten said... I really can't see Meyer making her a vampire in the last book. I think something will happen that will be allow the good vampires to turn normal.

A. said... Really? I think Bella will be a vampire.

sylvia said... I didn't see anything in the first book to imply that any of them would want to be normal, does that change?

Robin S. said... Oh, crap - Dave- I hope you're not right!Do they HAVE SEX??? Ever? I mean, honestly. Sylvia.

A. said... Sylvia - they discuss the moral implications of being a vampire in the later books, but very little. The only one who I think would choose to be normal is Edward.

Kiersten said... A, Rosalee is desperate to be human. That's why she hates Bella. And Robin, the answer is no, not yet.

Evil Editor said... Does she hate all humans or just Bella?

Kiersten said... Mostly she just hates Bella, but it's because she envies Bella the opportunity for a normal life that Bella is willing to throw away, since Rosalie didn't get a choice.

A. said... Rosalie resents being made into a vampire, but I don't think she'd choose to be a human again. Vanity is her biggest weakness and as a vampire she is as beautiful as she'll ever be. I don't think she'd want to go through the aging process, etc. And she also wouldn't leave Emmett. In my opinion. And one of the reasons she hates Bella is because Edward loves Bella... but wouldn't accept her as his partner when Carlisle created her. Again... vanity.

sylvia said... I thought Rosalie's hatred/jealousy was pretty well explained, especially once Edward's rejection of her is brought into it.

Dave F. said... How does the book deal with killing people for their blood?

Kiersten said... Dave, they drink animal blood.

Evil Editor said... I didn't like the idea of the vampires killing bears and mountain lions.

sylvia said... I sort of liked the imagery of them wrestling bears for their blood - otherwise there was a good chance of romanticising the whole vampire thing to the point of losing the story tension.

Kiersten said...Yeah, EE, it's a little weird. Okay, Robin, that gets a lot more into the next books. But think of what Bella is giving up: She can never see her family again. She will have to pull away from them and leave her parents grieving for their only child. She will never be able to have a family of her own. Sure, she'll have hotty Edward forever, but she'll never be able to have children. I guess maybe that was just such a high priority for me that I think it would be tragic to willingly give that up. Also, everything that Edward likes about her is because she's human--becoming a vampire will change everything he likes/finds endearing or attractive about her.

Evil Editor said... Humans are a dime a dozen.

Dave F. said... Isn't that a little self-hatred on Edward's part? he likes all her non-vampire charateristics and would not be attracted to her "vampire" characteristics if she were to become one.

sylvia said... Dave F - that's a good point. It never occurs to Bella that by becoming a vampire, she could completely lose her appeal to him.

Robin S. said... Well, then, Edward really is a selfish ass if he only loves Bella for her human aspects - and not what she would be 'in total' - and I say - to hell with him. I hate jerkweed selfish angsty guys. (Mainly because I knew so many, back when I didn't hate them. As with most women - even if they think their personal case is different.)

A. said... I completely disagree that Edward would stop loving her as a vampire. It seems to me that his concerns are that a) she won't have a normal life with children, etc and b) she may be damned. Um, pretty good reasons to be hesitant if you truly love someone.

sylvia said... No - I don't mean he would actually reject her. But as insecure as Bella is, it's only just struck me that she's never thought that as a vampire, she's losing her scent and a number of other aspects that make her special to him.

Robin S. said... Good Lord. Sex drive is normal. Not having one - abstaining that long - is clinically strange. Robin S. said... OK- SO WHY IS THIS BOOK A BESTSELLER? I really wanna know. Because I'd never heard of it before it went on EE's list.

Evil Editor said... Who knows why books become bestsellers? This book and The Da Vinci Code get bashed all the time, for legitimate reasons, but can you really argue with massive sales?

Robin S. said... Massive sales. Hmmmm. It's a fence walk that's honestly screwing me up - trying to write for sales or write for what I think of as a well-written novel. Hope I get to find out.

sylvia said... Bestseller : I think it's romance for kids that don't have a handle on romance yet. Fast moving Gone with the Wind style but "urban fantasy" so it's not embarrassing to get caught with it. I ended up quite drawn in at some point - not in any kind of serious level, more like not being able to put the popcorn down. But still...

Kiersten said... Yeah, Sylvia, it's popcorn. If you don't overthink it, it's pretty fun. My first read through I really liked it. But when I started thinking about it afterward, so many aspects of it really bothered me. But like I said, this is romance for teenage girls. The more angst, the more drama, the better. Which, as adults, we know isn't true. Hopefully.

Dave F. said... People like to solve puzzles. That's why the DaVinci Code was popular.

sylvia said... The Da'Vinci code had me screaming at the book. I made my boyfriend read it immediately - as everyone I knew had loved it and I thought it was just me. Was so relieved when he started shouting at the book too (although "WTF are they doing to that poor Earl Grey?" still makes me laugh.)

A. said... Well, writing for sales probably never works. Besides, Kiersten told us Meyer wrote her book in a few months with no real intentions at first of having it published. I think a lot of it is luck. And a damn good agent.

Kiersten said... Okay, here's a HUGE pet peeve. This book is vaguely based on Pride and Prejudice. The next book, New Moon, on Romeo and Juliet. PLEASE can we stop treating Romeo and Juliet like a romance? Folks, it's a tragedy about how stupid adults and kids are and how selfishness destroys everyone around you. How applicable to Bella and Edward.

Dave F. said... Yeah, 14, 15, and 16 year olds are blind to everything when "love" is involved.

Kiersten said... Okay, does anyone care if we discuss spoilers for the next two books, or do you want to know?

Robin S. said... Go ahead with the spoilers, in my opinion. I'm not reading 2 and 3- and if I read 4 - it will be a speed-read. What's the dirt from books 2 and 3?

Evil Editor said... Spoil me.

YiS said... Okay, since we're going ahead with the spoiling - I wanted to smack Edward in book 2. He leaves Bella and then berates her for believing that he would ever leave her and not trusting in his awesome powers of vampire love. So the fact that she has insecurities - which, come on, she's SEVENTEEN - and actually thinks 'hey, he has good reasons for this' is her not being committed enough? Hey, I completely get the whole 'abusive relationship' thing now! -

Kiersten said... Okay, let's take a poll. How many of us wish we had made an eternal commitment to the person we were dating at seventeen? Me, I was dating a gay, drug addicted pathological liar. So I'd go in the no category.

Robin S. said... I can only remember the last names of two guys I knew when I was seventeen. I thought it was only me.

A. said... No, I certainly wouldn't want to be with the guy I was with at 17. But he wasn't Edward Cullen... Personally, I have a bit of thing for Jasper, even though he does attempt to eat Bella in book 2 :)

sylvia said... LOL I'm with you on that one Kiersten! But when I was 17? I sorta half thought that's what I should do. I wanted it to be forever. That fantasy aspect has to be very appealing at an age where feelings are so strong and everyone is telling you that everything is temporary.

Evil Editor said... I have to go. However, I'll leave comment moderation off so the discussion can continue. Sorry, unavoidable.

sylvia said... I don't think it would be possible to write something like that if you didn't still have the fantasy, though.

sylvia said... Aw, see you EE!

Robin S. said... Oh - EE. We'll miss you.

A. said... Actually, I should probably go, too. I have to study for the half of the bar that I didn't pass (failed by less than half a point... sheesh). That's why I haven't been around as much lately. I'll see more of you guys in August :) Have fun discussing the future books. So far, book 3 was my favorite. We learn more of the histories of the other vampires, particularly Rosalie and Jasper. I'm really hoping book 4 is fabulous (due to be released in August), but I fear it won't be, since she spent a good portion of the year dealing with her first adult novel.

Kiersten said... Good luck, A. The BAR is evil. Pure evil.

sylvia said... See you soon a. - get studying! That must be frustrating. Fingers crossed for book 4 (I guess the adult novel isn't out yet?)

Kiersten said... Came out a few weeks ago. The Host. Don't recommend it unless you loved these books.

A. said... Yeah, the adult novel was just released last month. If you think Twilight was overwritten, wait until you read The Host. It was pretty good for entertainment purposes... an easy, interesting read, but it's unnecessarily long. Meyer really doesn't like to edit :) Okay, really going now :) Good night!

Kiersten said... Bummer. Bye, EE Okay, New Moon. Edward leaves her after she cuts her finger at his house and Jasper wants to eat her. (PLOT HOLE: how on earth does Jasper function surrounded by fertile young women every day at school? Because periods? Blood. All the time.) Bella goes pretty much catatonic, doesn't do anything. She's LAME. Then she gets to be friends with Jacob and they have an awesome relationship, he helps her come out of zombie mode and just as he's leaning in to kiss her and she's wondering if she can move on from Edward... Alice comes back and Edward thought Bella was dead and is going to kill himself. Real healthy dynamic, these two. She saves him, blah blah, whatever. They are back together.

sylvia said... OK, I agree, that sounds awful.

Robin S. said... Why did Edward think she was dead?

Kiersten said... Because in an effort to feel alive, and because when she did stupid things she could hear Edward in her head yelling at her (no, this is not really explained satisfactorily) she jumps off of a cliff into the ocean. Alice saw this in a vision. But Alice can't see werewolves (and Jacob is a werewolf, btw) so when he saves her Alice doesn't see that. So Edward thinks Bella killed herself.

sylvia said... OH - that Jacob! sylvia said... I was thinking Jasper - that he had the same scent thing going on.

Kiersten said... Okay, that's the other frustrating thing--she builds up this love triangle between Jacob, Bella, and Edward. But as my sister said, she liked Edward and Jacob both better than Bella, and wishes those two would just get together. Bella has a much healthier relationship with Jacob, and even though I know she'll choose Edward because it's more romantic, I'd rather see her with the person that makes her happy instead of constantly miserable. I'm just weird that way.

Robin S. said... I liked Jacob better in the first book as well.

sylvia said... I like the idea of Edward and Jacob getting together!

Dave F. said... you would say that this is a teen girl book?

Robin S. said... Dave, I don't know about what Kiersten and Sylvia and others think- but I sure do agree- this is a teen book - in my reading experience.

Robin S. said...So- end of book 2- they're together? Book 3?

Kiersten said... Okay, Book Three... Edward and Bella are in LOVE. Bella's dad hates Edward. But they are in LOVE so they don't care. But poor Jacob is heartbroken. Edward forbids Bella to see him because werewolves have bad tempers (ahem...ABUSIVE) but she starts hanging out with him again. There's all this elaborate setup so that Bella ends up in the mountains on a freezing cold night and has to spend the night in a sleeping bag with Jacob while Edward watches. Then she is sleeping but still hears their whole conversation about how they both love her. Victoria comes to hunt down Bella, Edward kills her and a bunch of vamps she brought with her with the help of Jacob's werewolf pack. Bella and Edward are going to get married at the end of the summer because Bella doesn't want to be nineteen forever. Edward agrees to try to have sex before turning her into a vampire because she's worried when she's no longer human she will want blood more than anything else instead of wanting Edward more than anything else. The end.

Kiersten said... Absolutely a teen book. I'm leaving a lot of stuff out, but that's the book in a nutshell.

Dave F. said... Gee, the Dad doesn't like the boy his daughter is dating.

Robin S. said... Wow. No sex drive as a vampire? I thought Carlyle and Esme and others lived as marrieds. Does that just mean they share dishwashing duty? Who's Victoria? This is SOoooo protracted for a not-bog-plot. I say again. Foreplay. Titillation. Tantalization (if that's a word).

sylvia said... LOL ... aw. *shakes head* I wanted to slap sense into Bella at the beginning of Book 1 - I can see that's not an isolated occurrence.

Kiersten said... Well, in one scene Bella tries to seduce Edward and he wants to wait because he's an old fashioned guy. So he makes her agree to marry him first. Then in the end, he agrees to go for it right then, but she knows it's important to him to wait, so she agrees to wait until after they get married.

Robin S. said... And yet- as a mechanism for the aforementioned usefulness - reading this right before you turn the lights out - and dreaming of yourself-saving Edward from a forever without love blah blah thing - oh yeah. Let the fantasies begin. Ok- yeah- it's a bestseller.

Kiersten said... Btw, in case you didn't already know that Twilight fans are freaks, there is a fan site that made a replica of Bella's engagement ring you can buy in silver for $70 all the way up to platinum for $1200. People are weird.

Dave F. said... Talk about the teen ability to over-talk, over-analyze and over-dramatize. No decision is ever final, everything is up for discussion, endless discussion.
Robin S. said... Kiersten- this has been really good! Thanks for doing it!
Kiersten said... Okay, any more questions? Any more things you want to discuss? Hey, it was fun. I like having things to think about besides what to make for dinner and how I have to wash Beast Boy's hair for the second time today because he rubbed ice cream in it.
sylvia said... See - that whole thing of I want you so bad I'm trying not to kill you - but I want you to promise you'll be mine forever first. Yes, ok, even as a teenager that would freak me out a bit - but as a fantasy, ooh la la :)
Robin S. said... Brit Boy has had one glass of wine- and, unlike Beast Boy- he;s still fussing. I gotta go. Thanks so much for doing this, EE and Miss K! I like these discussions a lot. And yeah, Sylvia--put into the real world, it's horrifying, but as fantasy it taps into a lot of day dreams that we all have but don't admit to. Yep- Sylvia- the old ooh-la-la dichotomy!

sylvia said...Yes, great job Kiersten. Was really good to get the background and understand how it wraps up. Also lots of points brought up that I hadn't noticed myself.
Kiersten said... I overthink things. Bad habit.

Well, the kids have lost patience. Thanks for staying up, Sylvia ; ) And thanks anyone who read through the whole thing. Yay for EE for giving poor bored housewives who have yet to get a fabulous book deal something to do.
Kiersten said... Also, disclaimer, should Stephenie Meyer or anyone related to her ever read this:

Yes, I think Bella and Edward have an unhealthy relationship and it bothers me, but I've still read all of your books. Three times. So what does that say about me?

sylvia said... I think YiS must have faded away? It's almost 1am her time and they go to bed early in Scotland ;) Hugs to the kids. I'm off to bed too.

Kiersten said... Goodnight!

Julie Weathers said... Good job, Miss Kiersten.

"dave conifer said... Kiersten (I mean, Key), nice job. I wish I could have been here but I enjoyed the way you presented this and I feel like I read it now......

Julie Weathers said... I was just reading the chat. Good job all.

ril said... So, about that book...

Moth said... So, I'm curious. Do they do "it" at the end of Book 3 or is it a to be continued will they or won't they?

Robin S. said... ril...late to the party, Brit Boy?

Kiersten said... No, they do not do "it" by the end of book three. They decide to wait until they get married.

The Jennifer Crusie/Bet Me Book Chat

Evil Editor said...Welcome to Book Chat 4. If we're lucky, the author may drop in to allow us to heap our praise upon her and to tell us which of her other books we would like. As last month, I've chosen a minion who had already read the book to moderate the chat. That being Tal tonight.

talpianna said... Is this, or is this not, the perfect role for an out-of-touch medievalist? I've just been arguing with an archaeologist. I'm in fine fettle. There are six people here counting EE--shall we start now, or give it a few minutes more? Jenny will be here if she can, but she's in the midst of home-remodeling hell and may not be free. Or may be locked in her refrigerator, for that matter.

Evil Editor said...Go for it.

Dave F. said... Well, it's a fun read. They are absolutely cutthroat women to the guy's rather stupid wolves.

BuffySquirrel said... Wolves? Puppies!

Evil Editor said... I didn't find them cutthroat. Maybe Liza.

Dave F. said... EE, she calls two of her friends "Wet" and "Worse"...My lover has friends I don't like and other than the one I call "dead" if he ever shows up at my house again, I never call them bad names.

Evil Editor said... Her sister's friends.

talpianna said... Liza, yes. And Cal's mother. And Cynthie.

Dave F. said... Cynthie is one of those "psychologist/psychiatrist" types who thinks she knows it all. I haven't reached her end but she believes she understands the world. I knew a few Nuns like that. And her sister is marrying the Maid of Honor's ex-boyfriend. In some cultures that would be an excuse for murder and mayhem.

Evil Editor said... Better than sleeping with the groom the night before the wedding.

Dave said...Wouldn't like:

a) helpless women (or those that pretend to be helpless) make me grumpy and snarly.

b) manipulative women (like Cynthie) I avoid. Life's too short for that stuff. And I've had a few manipulative women as bosses.

talpianna said... Since there are a bunch of guys here, I'd like to start by asking them what they thought of Crusie's male characters? Realistic?

Dave F. said... They think with their "manhood" ...

talpianna said... Roger (ironically) doesn't.

Dave F. said... Roger seems to have a bad streak of revenge.

Evil Editor said... I didn't buy the stuff the ex-boyfriend was doing. Sure, he was egged on by Cynthie, but...

talpianna said... I did--but then I've been reading a lot of books about psychopaths lately, and I think David is one. Not the serial-killer kind, the shallow kind who has no empathy and likes to make trouble for the sake of trouble--and only cares about himself.

BuffySquirrel said... Well, I just finished reading "Ice Bound", where the author's ex-husband did some pretty terrible things, like going around telling the press that she didn't really have cancer and was just attention seeking.... So maybe it's hard to believe someone can behave like that, but they can. With a slightly different motivation (the whole 'If I can't have her, nobody can'), I think the ex-boyfriend might have convinced more. Certainly he didn't care about her at all.

Robin S. said... the shallow kind who has no empathy and likes to make trouble for the sake of trouble--and only cares about himself. Yep. A Peter Pan sociopath.

talpianna said... One of the things I particularly appreciate about good romance novels is well-developed minor characters and relationships other than the h/h--family and friendship and colleagues. I thought the various friendships were well done. And Wet and Worse were DIANA's friends, not Min's. She couldn't stand them.

Evil Editor said... I thought he realized too late that he cared about her.

Robin S. said... No. David is a world-class user asshole. I've known a few.

talpianna said... I think it was pretty clear, in his conversations with Cynthie after she'd given up on getting Cal back, that he was much more about seeing Cal lose than about getting Min back.

Evil Editor said... No reason to believe he was ever honest with Cynthie.

Robin S. said... I agree - David's conversations were false by definition - because he's who he is. David 's the kind of guy who's never been honest with anyone ever - not even himself. And he has no self-awareness at all.

BuffySquirrel said... I don't think he cared about her. Maybe he convinced himself he did. Actions speak louder than words....

talpianna said... EE, I was thinking more about David's inner dialogue than what he said to anyone else, including Cynthie.

Dave F. said... David was obviously more serious than Minerva was about their "love life"... I don't think he's altogether bad, he's just very, very hurt and being mean about it. Besides, he has that bet for a seminar with Calvin.

talpianna said... In most genre fiction, the good guys and the bad guys are pretty clearly distinguished. In this one, as in many of Crusie's longer books, there are a lot of gray hats, so to speak. Any characters you have no sympathy with? And what did you think of the various endings she gave them in the epilogue? I thought David got too happy an ending.

BuffySquirrel said... I had no sympathy with David. Or with the long description of the wedding dress. Enough already!

Dave F. said... The Wedding Dress is the dream dress of many a bride. It is the most oversold and overwrought piece of junk a woman can wear. It's utterly useless, completely impractical and merely "the stuff that dreams are made of" And don't get me started on the ugliness of a bridesmaid dress. The male equivalent of a bridesmaid dress is a speedo. YIKES can you look ugly real fast in those things.

talpianna said... Dave, that may be true, but the fact remains that it's the center of many girls' dreams from the time they are old enough to play with Barbies.

BuffySquirrel said... Dave, dear, do you honestly think you're telling me something I don't know?

Dave F. said... I know about wedding dresses. I know about dreams and barbie doll dreams. And I also know that y'all do to. That's why I added the quote from the Maltese Falcon - the stuff that dreams are made of.

talpianna said... Dave--that's Shakespeare

Evil Editor said...

MacBeth: Is this a dagger which I see before me?
Laertes: Naw, it's the stuff dreams are made of.

talpianna said... I didn't know Laertes dealt crack!

Dave F. said... From IMDB - The Maltese Falcon [last lines]
Detective Tom Polhaus: [picks up the falcon] Heavy. What is it?
Sam Spade: The, uh, stuff that dreams are made of.
Detective Tom Polhaus: Huh?

Something to believe in, dreams. I think that Minerva has no dreams. I think her family knocked them out of her with their constant fussiness. I think she's the designated spinster who stays home and takes care of mummy and daddy in their old age. Weddings are dreams -- completely impractical, expensive and outrageous dreams. I'm not out to rob a gal of her dreams.

BuffySquirrel said... Those sorts of weddings were never my dreams. Maybe cos my doll was a Sindy? Tal, we need a cast list for this chat!

Dave said...What girl doesn't dream of being Snow White to Prince Charming? What father doesn't have that heart-tugging moment when the little girl suddenly becomes a woman? All of that is a fairy tale, the best of all possible worlds that for a few minutes, actually comes true.

talpianna said... I didn't see Snow White--I saw lots of Cinderella and a bit of Sleeping Beauty, with Liza as generic fairy godmother. Unless you count Elvis as Puss in Boots?

BuffySquirrel said... Let us get this very clear. I never fantasised about Big Expensive Weddings. I never fantasised about Prince Fucking Charming. Are we clear now? Mostly I wanted a pony. And no, not for sex.

talpianna said... Dave, I think you have a good point about Min. Remember the scene where Bonnie tried to get Min to say what her dream was? It was like pulling teeth to get her even to envision it.

And THE MALTESE FALCON was still quoting THE TEMPEST.

BuffySquirrel said... We are such stuff as dreams are made on. ON not OF!

Dave F. said... When I use the quote "Stuff that dreams are made of" I am generally thinking of the lengths that the characters in The Maltese Falcon went to just to own the falcon. In the end it was nothing but a useless hunk of metal. The fullfilment of some dreasm is like that.

Now as to weddings. I really like "Four Weddings and a Funeral" which has no plot. And my other favorite movie romance is "When Harry Met Sally" because that's the way love is.

We like fighting couples because we know that in the end, they make up. SO Kiss me, Kate.

Evil Editor said... I liked a lot of characters. I guess it's a requirement in romance that someone be trying to keep the h/h apart. In my romance novel that won't be the case.

talpianna said... Well, fashion--and weight--is/are one of the themes of the book. How did you feel about Nanette, Min's mom? Black hat or gray? (Designer hat, of course)

Evil Editor said... Compared to Cal's mother she was a doll.

Jeb said... Nanette got off too lightly, imho. Is it really possible for her to have never challenged her own perceptions about weight/marriage/whatever in all those years, and then to turn around on a dime because her overweight 'disappointing' daughter says so the day after she catches an 'eligible man'?

talpianna said... Jeb--I think what shook Nanette up and changed her was the confrontation with her husband about his supposed affair.

BuffySquirrel said... I think I wished more that I had girl friends like Min's than I wished I had a man like Cal. Quite a lot more.

Jeb said... buffy - I agree with you about wanting good girlfriends more.

talpianna said... Buffy, I completely agree! Crusie does female friendships well. I think the truly bad characters in this book were Cal's parents and David. Oh, and Greg and Worse. Everyone else had extenuating circumstances. I disliked Nanette intensely (especially since she had my former name!) but she genuinely wanted happiness for Min.

Jeb said... I thought it was a very realistic touch that the sister's friends had their own 'pet names' for Min's friends. It's a common enough kind of shorthand. As for David, I've met guys like him. In fact, living in a oil-boom city, I'm surrounded by them. I agree his motivations could have been stronger; after all, he didn't really want Min back, and he could have bailed out on the bet any time. Cynthie... I've met women like her, too. Self-justifying co-workers like her were one reason I gave up psychology for accounting (not that accountants aren't evil in their own way) What saved the long wedding-dress description for me was Min's comment afterward.
sylvia said... Personally, I found David hard to believe. Not because I haven't seen sociopathic behaviour before, but he kept almost-not-doing-it then changing his mind for a view of Cynthie's cleavage. He wasn't sociopathic, just horny. And that seemed a bit hard to keep believing in, over time.

Robin S. said... Yeah, jeb, that was a bit of a 'wrap-it-up' tp me as well, re: Nanette.

BuffySquirrel said... Nanette might not change her views, but she might be prepared to eat stuff to save her marriage.

Dave F. said... Yeah, I was surprised that Nanette was so openly hostile to a "full-figured" daughter.

It seemed Calvin, (like me) likes them with a little meat on their bones.

Jeb said... Sadly, I've had supper with oil-company people who act a lot like Cal's family. Many of them don't allow children at the dining table until they've been properly socialized by their private schools.

Not sure I buy that Cal's sister-in-law... Bink... was really about to start standing up to her asshole husband after all those years. She'd been so spineless up til then.

In fact, most of the female characters were treated very sympathetically in the end. Normal women rip each other to shreds. But then, it's a fantasy, right? Like the romance with the gorgeous guy who loves you FOR your weight instead of in spite of it.

BuffySquirrel said... When one woman shreds another, I itch to bang their heads together. Maybe all Blink needed was someone who was on her side. Many people can't act unsupported, but can if they get help.

sylvia said... Both of them had an awful parent (her mother, his father) which struck me as a bit contrived to throw them together. The constant contact and open hostility seemed odd to me. For such strong-minded people, I would have thought that one of them would have walked away.

Evil Editor said... I didn't buy Min walking out of Emilio's after Cal sang. It was romantic. Her friends were there. It was time to go for it, not fret yet again.

Jeb said... I'm with EE on Min walking out at the most romantic moment of her life. It seemed like a ploy to extend the conflict for another few chapters. Loved the rehearsal dinner scene - I can see screaming out loud that on a movie screen.

Robin S. said... The endless fretting. Yeah - that's not something I'm fond of.

sylvia said... I did kind of understand the walking out of the song - or, I understood Min's reaction. But I would have thought she'd have stayed there and shut up and avoided causing a scene. It was very overt for the circumstances.

talpianna said... Sylvia, I think Min didn't want to break down and have a crying jag in public. EE--reread what she said to him after he caught up with her after the song. It really rang true to me. It didn't matter that David dumped her, because he didn't know the REAL her. But Cal DID, and she was certain he'd dump her--the real her--and that was what hurt so much. And up to that point we had no indication that Cal himself had any intention of permanence, just wishful thinking.

Evil Editor said... Is she still certain he'll dump her?

BuffySquirrel said... Sometimes hope can be the scariest thing.

talpianna said... Min didn't walk out on her family because of Diana, and Cal didn't walk out on his because of Harry and Bink. Min's father was OK, and as I said, Nanette may have been a lousy mother but she really loved Min and cared about her--she was just completely wrong about things. And maybe not even that--being myself overweight, I've been the recipient of a hell of a lot of cruelty on that account. And I thought that Cal's mother was even worse than his father; and Reynolds was a just barely redeemable butthead.

Jeb said... Bink had Cal's support years before, and it wasn't enough even though they were both at the same family dinner table month after month. I think she's one of the weaker characters as far as consistency goes. The guys seemed to be generally one-dimensional, one reason why I can't handle reading many romances per year.

BuffySquirrel said... I got the impression the incident at the game was the only time Cal had offered active support.

talpianna said... I think the support Bink needed was not just Cal (who after all was the family's Designated Loser) but Cal plus Min.

Jeb said... If Cal had never stood up for Bink or Harry before (although I thought that was implied by his interactions wtih Harry), then he was pretty spineless too. Sigh.

BuffySquirrel said... Spineless, or, perhaps, a real person rather than a movie hero?

Jeb said...Frankly, if I met a man's parents and they acted like Cal's did, I'd dump him and run, far and fast. No matter how sexy he is, that's a train wreck happening in slow mo for decades to come. I guess the author did such a good job with all these dysfunctional people that it was ultimately impossible for for me to believe in the 'happily ever after'. The odds against were just too strong.

talpianna said... Jeb, you might take a look at the previous post on my blog--"HEA? No way, Jose!" for what makes an HEA impossible.

sylvia said... Overall I liked it - it was a fun, quick read. Although at the start I thought "oh god, not ANOTHER miserable woman intro" - Homicide My Own and Twilight and this one - now I know how our book club books were chosen. :)

Evil Editor said... There's gonna be stuff I don't buy in any romance, probably any book. All in all, I thought this was excellent. Funny, with several characters I liked.

talpianna said... I loved the wedding--or rather non-wedding--scene. What did you people think of the use of fairy-tale tropes?

sylvia said... The sister wedding sub-plot was not very interesting to me. He was clearly a jerk, she clearly had the wrong intentions, it was simply waiting to see how their wedding or non-wedding was going to help Min and Cal get together. As such, I didn't mind it but I didn't see it as anything deeper than a convenient plot device, to be honest.

Jeb said... re fairy tale tropes, I thought it was interesting that Min had all these 'couple' snow globes that she didn't want, but other people, even those who supposedly knew her best, kept projecting their fantasy about what she wanted onto her. And she never stopped them. It seems so spineless of her. I really enjoyed this book overall, and a lot of it was from the witty dialogue. Like the best scenes in 'Pride & Prejudice' are of Lizzie and Mr. Darcy zinging each other.

BuffySquirrel said... Any fairytale references passed me by. I didn't much like the snow globes, either. Mostly I fumed about the dinky shoes. Why sqrls no can haz dinky shoes?

Dave F. said... Buffy, go back and read about the snow globes. Her family is buying her marriage substitutes.

talpianna said... One thing I found interesting was that so many characters had great insight into the behavior of others but absolutely none into their own.

Sarah Laurenson said... Just popping in. This is what I wrote on my blog: I don’t read much from the romance shelves. I used to occasionally dip into them and see what was going on only to find the same story repeated with the names and locations changed. Being a minion of the great Evil Editor, I’ve had the pleasure of opening a romance novel once again. Bet Me by Jennifer Crusie is wonderfully fresh, with likable, well-drawn characters. I hope this is a sign of the times when it comes to the romance genre. The book drew me in and kept me interested from the first page to the last. Jennifer - Thanks for the realistic, cynical, fun main characters. And the secondary characters are no slouches either.

Evil Editor said... Let's discuss the symbolism of doughnuts.

talpianna said... Hey, Buff--whatever happened to "What I tell you three times is true"?

BuffySquirrel said... Lol, Tal. I guess they expired ;)!

Evil Editor said... I for one don't like chocolate on my doughnuts.

talpianna said... The doughnut of course, symbolizes "One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to bind them...." Only half kidding

talpianna said... And Entenmann's are better than Krispy Kremes. The doughnut cake at the rehearsal dinner made me queasy just reading about it. I like cake doughnuts dusted with either powdered sugar or cinnamon sugar.

talpianna said... I think that for Min the doughnut symbolizes everything in life that she wants, fears won't be good for her, and can't have--like Cal.

Robin S. said... I love chocolate glazed doughnuts. At least I used to.

Jeb said... And Krispy Kreme spent millions trying to penetrate the market up here, but failed in our city for lack of interest (like Starbucks in Vienna - it's patronized almost exclusively by homesick Americans). We Canucks already have decent donuts. The donut motif didn't do it for me, either in the romance or the sex trope.

ril said... Krispy Kreme just opened a couple of places here. There's regularly a two hour queue outside. That's a pretty serious sugar craving, that is.

Evil Editor said... Krispy Kreme is big in the South, Dunkin Donuts in the Northeast.

Sarah Laurenson said... Stan's doughnuts in Westlake Village, CA. Or Southern Maid if you're in the Southern US.

Dave F. said... Crispy Creme makes a cinnamon bun donut that I'd kill for... It is the forbidden fruit of temptation he is the snake and they are in the garden. Even the innocents (Harry) are watching them).

BuffySquirrel said... It has a fair few food as substitute for sex scenes :).

Evil Editor said... It's unrealistic to eat chicken Marsala every night for three months straight.

ChrisEldin said... It's not if you have one of those mango lhasi drinks with it.

Sarah Laurenson said... Eat the same thing every night? Not difficult for computer geeks.

Jeb said... WAY too much chicken marsala in this book! I liked that she learned to cook something, though. Girls my daughter's age think they are at home in a kitchen if they can fix steam-in-bag veggies.

Robin S. said... I'd starve if I had to eat that. yuck.

talpianna said... Buffy, did you ever see the original film of TOM JONES with Albert Finney and Susannah York? There was a great food = sex scene there.

talpianna said... Guess what I'm having for dinner tonight?

Evil Editor said... Donuts?

talpianna said... No--I'm having chicken Marsala. talpianna said... Actually, come to think of it, I DO have some cinnamon-sugar mini-doughnuts.... Isn't it Brenda who is getting married this weekend?

BuffySquirrel said... Umm, no, Tal, I haven't :). Brenda sent me a message but I can't locate it now. Something about hoping to attend. She's traveling, I think.

Robin S. said... Oh yeah - that food/sex scene in the old Tom Jones was fantastic.

talpianna said... For those who like funny romances (mainly romantic suspense) I recommend Jayne Ann Krentz in her various incarnations (JAK, Amanda Quick, Jayne Castle).

Skipper said... Anyone But You is really one of her categories, so you can't lump it in with her stand-alone novels. It was originally a Harlequin, which has restrictions on word count.

BuffySquirrel said... Here we are: Brenda said: I'm not at my own house til July, so it really depends on whether or not I can get online that night. I'm going to try though.

ril said... I didn't manage to read this book but thought I'd drop by and see if I should have. Looks like a yes.

Evil Editor said... Yes ril, I'd call it our second best book, though I expect next month's to move into the top two.

Robin S. said... The next two look wonderful.

Evil Editor said... Is this a typical Crusie book? Are they all funny? Do the others have more sex?
talpianna said... Crusie writes two types of books, really. Her earlier ones, mostly categories, like MANHUNTING and CHARLIE ALL NIGHT, tend to be mainly funny, though there may be a few serious matters. Her later standalones tend to have much darker elements. In CRAZY FOR YOU, the heroine's nicest-guy-in-town fiance turns into a crazed stalker when she breaks up with him. TELL ME LIES has adultery and murder. FAST WOMEN is also darker, but all these have a good deal of humor as well. Many people's favorite is WELCOME TO TEMPTATION, though BET ME is mine.

Robin S. said... What's up with the end-of-book sex? It was pretty good. I wished there'd been more.

Evil Editor said... It's not uncommon for a romance to have three sex scenes.

talpianna said... For some reason, most romances have a sex scene as the penultimate scene, followed by an epilogue-type HEA with them surrounded by children.

Dave F. said... I read FAKING IT a few years ago and it was fun, cute story. About art forgeries and forgers. I gave my Mother "Agnes and the Hitman" for Christmas. I could only get to read about 100 pages but it had me laughing too hard. Christmas came and I had to wrap up Agnes. I'm waiting to grab it off my Mother's bookcase and finish it someday.

talpianna said... Dave, FAKING IT is the sequel to WELCOME TO TEMPTATION and makes more sense if you've read that first. And Canadians--let's hear it for Tim Hortons!

Skipper said... Just joining in.... This is a typical Crusie book in voice; the humor, snappy dialogue and characters are part of what you expect in a Crusie. As for sex, this book is more of a straight romance compared to her other books. Her romantic comedies, especially Welcome to Temptation or Fast Women, or her collaborative novels.

Sarah Laurenson said... I've read two more of hers. They don't quite measure up to this one.

talpianna said... Dave, the pink flamingos are for real. And DON'T LOOK DOWN (not as good as AGNES) had a one-eyed alligator that eats people. Also appears briefly in AGNES. Eats somebody.

Sarah Laurenson said... DON'T LOOK DOWN had a lot of military influence from her co-author. ANYONE BUT YOU was cute, but not as 'deep' as BET ME.

Dave F. said... Aside from dead bodies and hidden chambers in Agnes, there's a wedding that they discuss having a "pink flamingo" theme. You want a dream wedding, put pink plastic flamingos at each table...

Evil Editor said... I had live flamingos on each table at my fourth wedding.

talpianna said... One of the more difficult to understand elements of the romance is the idea of the new society forming at the end centered on the H/H. I thought that was much clearer here, with the gangs of friends melded, Diana included in the group and dumping Wet and Worse, and Min's parents' marriage mended.

ChrisEldin said... From wedding dresses to Krispy Kreme to pink flamingoes.... I'd better click on refresh now.

Sarah Laurenson said... I'm getting married tomorrow. And word count limits suck. Ah well. It's still a cute story.

talpianna said... Sarah, what are your bridesmaids wearing?

ChrisEldin said... Congratulations Sarah!! Let's talk about this for a while. Do you have rings? Will it be outdoor or indoor? Can you bring a computer wit a camera and let us witness? :-)

Evil Editor said... Can you put wedding cake into hundreds of little boxes and mail them to us?

Robin S. said... Brenda AND Sarah are getting married? Wow. This is some 'June wedding' month!

Sarah Laurenson said... Only witness is the friend who used to do wedding photography. Outside at our home with some sort of paralegal or other to do the documents and officiate. Will post photos after we get back from the honeymoon.

BuffySquirrel said... Tal, dear, as moderator you're supposed to keep the chat on track :).
Congrats, Sarah :). Many happy years ahead, I'm sure!

ChrisEldin said... Yes to EE"s idea!

Sarah Laurenson said... Well, EE, there is this little cupcake delivery joint here that makes cupcakes that are much better than any donut.

Dave F. said... It's a gay wedding (in both senses of that word) and I really am happy to hear about it. It's been a long wait but well worth it. Many happy years.

talpianna said... I think I was mistaken about Brenda. Unless she's marrying Sarah?

Sarah Laurenson said... But I would need your address, dear.

Sarah Laurenson said... Me marry Brenda? She's way over my head in sexiness.

Robin S. said... Hey- there are different kinds of sexy.

Jeb said... Yay! A wedding! Congratulations, Sarah! I'll go eat kahlua fudge cheesecake in your honour. 'Bye all. It's been the fastest hour of my recent life.

Sarah Laurenson said... I think I'd like that too much, tal. ;-)

Sarah Laurenson said... Thanks for the great chat and for letting me usurp the ending.

ChrisEldin said... EE usurped it when he kept talking about donuts. :-)

talpianna said... Anyway, Sarah, I hope that your wedding is as different as possible from Diana's! And may you have a little Elvis of your very own.

talpianna said... I'm the Molederator. Does anyone have any further points they want to make about BET ME?

BuffySquirrel said... Only to say that I enjoyed it far more than I expected to. A fun book.

Evil Editor said... I'm told Ms. Crusie is a very entertaining speaker.

Sarah Laurenson said... I'd love to hear her speak. I'd love to meet her. I think she's a fabulous writer.

talpianna said... She is indeed, EE. She and Mayer were at a booksigning here for DON'T LOOK DOWN, and she cracked up the room.

Robin S. said... It would be fun to see her speak. I agree.

talpianna said... Those who enjoy her voice should check out her blog: http://www.arghink.com./

Sarah Laurenson said... My mom loved Bet Me and is passing it around to her friends.

Evil Editor said... The July chat book is To Say Nothing of the Dog, by Connie Willis.

The title comes from the book Three Men in a Boat, to Say Nothing of the Dog, by Jerome K. Jerome, considered one of the funnier books ever written. You don't need to read it to enjoy To Say Nothing of the Dog, but the characters from one do make a cameo appearance in the other, so you might want to do so. I believe you can find Three Men in a Boat online at no cost if you want to read it and prefer not to purchase it.

BuffySquirrel said... I read "Three Men in a Boat" prior to reading "To Say Nothing of the Dog", and thought it hilarious.

Robin S. said... Who's moderating next month?

ril said... Yes, project Gutenburg has "Three Men in A Boat". Another very funny book, though not to everyone's taste. Quaint, perhaps. I wrote a paper on Jerome's books in High School. Guess I might have to try and get hold of next month's books.

BuffySquirrel said... And I sent a copy of "To Say Nothing of the Dog" to my dad, and he's now busily buying up Connie's back catalogue.

talpianna said... I have a copy of TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG around here somewhere, presumably in one of the 175 cartons of books that hasn't yet been unpacked.

Evil Editor said... Someone requested moderating duties a while back. I thought it was Buffy.

BuffySquirrel said... It was!

Evil Editor said... Still want it? It's yours.

Robin S. said... Sounds good buff.

Dave F. said... I just downloaded Three Men in a Boat from Project Gutenberg. about 380K

ME said... I just caught up here (It's over!) and thought I would say that this month's chat was much more orderly than earlier ones and extremely funny when you get to the part about Brenda marrying Sarah!!! Great job, minions, better than a review and I think I'll try to get a copy!

Evil Editor said... Thanks for coming, everyone. Thanks Tal.

BuffySquirrel said... H'okay :).

Robin S. said... I'd like to do one at some point.

Evil Editor said... You can have August, Robin.

Robin S. said... OK- if no one else wants it. It looks fascinating to me. And I can read it on vacation.

BuffySquirrel said... Any news on September's Mystery Book, EE?

ril said... Do we know what September is yet? That's the one from the Auction, right?

Evil Editor said... I emailed the winner, but got no response. According to Google, it might prove to be a book in which numerous successful authors are interviewed about how they first got published, but he may have another book in mind.

BuffySquirrel said... Hmm, well, we can't read it if they won't tell us what it is!

Moth said... I'm trying to catch up on the comments. I had to work. *cries* Sorry if this has been covered but I know I wanted to know what people thought about Cal and Bink being in lurv before Min. It came out of left field for me, personally.

Sarah Laurenson said... Cal and Bink? I think it followed as standard from the dysfunctional family setup. Seems to me, Cal is a rescuer. And Bink needed rescued. That's why it takes so long for him to figure out he's attracted for real to Min. She didn't need rescued. Except she really did need rescued from her fat-phobic mom and her own bad self-image.

Moth said... *talking to herself*

Also, my top 5 Crusies for anyone who wants to pick up more are:

1.) Faking It
2.) Bet Me
3.) Agnes and the Hitman (with Bob Mayer)
4.) Fast Women
5.) What the Lady Wants

I'm still sad I missed the whole freakin' book chat. *sigh* Stupid day job.

talpianna said... Moth, they weren't really "in love": it was more like she was depending on him, and she was what he wanted, only more as a foreshadowing of Min that truly as herself--an image of what a woman could and should be: loving, loyal, etc. And I'm surprised that your best Crusies list omits WELCOME TO TEMPTATION and includes WHAT THE LADY WANTS, which I disliked, on the whole.

Phoenix said... Excellent moderating (molerating?), Tal! I lurked live on and off for the first half or so and have just come back to catch up. EE, these book chats are really all going SO well!!

Julie Weathers said... This was a good discussion guys and gals.

Moth said... I do like Welcome to Temptation. It would probably be 6 or 7 on my list, but whatsherface the selfish little sister annoys the hell out of me and I do NOT understand why that one person (you know who) gets away with killing TWO PEOPLE and only has to vote the right way at council meetings to get away with freaking murder.

Pretty much all Crusies are keepers and chronic re-reads for me, though. Faking It and Bet Me just come out tops.

Jennifer Crusie said... Oh, HELL. I missed it. I had to go out and get a faucet because the one that was supposed to be here they told me today was back ordered four to six weeks and the plumber is coming tomorrow . . . This is why I will never promise to do anything ever again. Damn. I am SO SORRY, Tal. I’ve got the plumber and the electrician coming tomorrow and they all need different things and I just forgot. I’m scum. I hate it when I do this. SO sorry, really.

The Connie Willis/To Say Nothing of the Dog Book Chat

BuffySquirrel> ok, hands up who's read the book

BuffySquirrel puts up hand

DaveFragments> I have

Robin> Me.

Kiersten> Umm...I've started it. I'm really, really busy adding to my rejection collection.

BuffySquirrel> so, who liked it?

Kiersten> I like it so far.

evledtr> This book is a classic.

BuffySquirrel> anyone really didn't like it?

DaveFragments> I liked it but I found the detail tedious and I was 150 pages into it screaming "where are you going?"

BuffySquirrel> so, bit slow for you dave? I thought it moved along fairly fast given the wealth of detail.

DaveFragments> in the book, I did reach the point of wanting less "thoughts" more substance And I thought it took too long to explain what the Bishop's Bird Stand was.

BuffySquirrel> i agree, dave it did seem to assume that you knew what a bird's stump is

Kiersten> Yes, what IS a bird's stump?

Xenith> I thought that was part of the "mystery"

BuffySquirrel> a bird's stump is a flower vase. but the bishop's bird stump isn't a flower vase, it's ironical: that's the bishop's IDEA of a flower vase cos he wouldn't buy one

DaveFragments> It's a piece of ugly junk with flowers in it.

Kiersten> Oh. Not at all what I had pictured.

BuffySquirrel> i think that is a flaw. . . unless you are meant to wonder for pages and pages and pages where you're too engrossed even to go get the dictionary

Xenith> you don't get to see it until the characters see it on stage

BuffySquirrel> that's true, xenith

Xenith> though coming down the river was a bit slow

BuffySquirrel> but i was very busy laughing at the poor narrator not realising he had the cat

Robin> I loved it. And I didn't expect to. The dialogue in this was absolutely SO well done.

BuffySquirrel> and all the things that nearly happened to the poor cat! i bought my dad a copy and he loved it

Kiersten> Well, I wasn't expecting much after it was compared to "The Water Method Man" but it was MUCH more appealing than that book.

BuffySquirrel> so it's obviously been a hit with a broad readership

Robin> I liked it a lot - and it was a totally different kind of novel for me.

DaveFragments> I started my fast read that's like a scan - yes

Kiersten>I think it's the most charming and effective use of first person I've ever read. I've always found first person to be very self-indulgent, but I think Willis does it incredibly well.

BuffySquirrel> hmm, that's interesting kiersten. self-indulgent in that it's a projection of the writer?

Kiersten> yes, Buffy, either you feel like you are getting all of their thoughts or you just want the narrator to SHUT UP. This was entertaining. I couldn't do it. First person is exhausting. I wrote a short story (it got published even!) and I don't think I'll ever do it again.

Robin> I like first person if it's done well - if it isn't then I agree- yuk.

BuffySquirrel> i hate badly done first person. it gives first person a bad namE!

Xenith> when it's good, it's very, very good but....

Robin> Yep- this was GOOD first person.

Kiersten> I haven't even gotten to the part where he finally realizes he has a cat.

BuffySquirrel> but you knew, right?

DaveFragments> I wondered what was so special about that cat. That's the problem with the Slipstream time travel gimmick

BuffySquirrel> cat is a "misplaced object". . . . or not

Robin> I enjoyed that whole slipstream thing. It reminds me of the way we think.

DaveFragments> I understand the time paradox and what happens as alternate history, but the cat didn't seem to have any importance until she reveals she brought it from the past.

BuffySquirrel> i thought there was a fuss about the cat, with it being The Only Cat in the World ohmygod

DaveFragments> PArt of the payoff is the Butler telling off the daughter about "running with the in crowd" and not having opinions of your own

BuffySquirrel> my dad pointed out that it's quite wrong to compare the butler to Jeeves Jeeves was a gentleman's gentleman, not a butler

Kiersten> I did like the nurse in the beginning, going off on how much better use the money could be put toward. That's how I feel about a lot of people's pet projects.

Robin> Can I say that I loved the 'old timey' chapter set ups?

Kiersten> There were a lot of very funny asides. And the section when he is time-lapsed and getting ready and the victorian tutelage is blending with everything else was great.

Xenith> I liked the time-lagged stuff too Kiersten

DaveFragments> But they were timelagged because of Lady Sphincter (I hope that's her name)

Kiersten> Schrapnell, Dave dearest. A little different.

BuffySquirrel> Schrapnell cos bits of her fly off and hit anyone within range

BuffySquirrel> i thought the cat was Suspiciously Quiet i mean they said it was time-lagged, but it was Very Quiet for a Cat in a Basket

evledtr> I thought the seance was the funniest part, though I now don't remember why.

DaveFragments> Seance was good.

BuffySquirrel> almost every victorian book has to have its seance

BuffySquirrel> has anyone read Three Men in a Boat?

Xenith> yes

BuffySquirrel> did you think it had anything of the same feel?

Xenith> the stuff at the beginnings of the chapters didn't work very well

BuffySquirrel> you mean the short little introductions? i think those divide opinion a lot

DaveFragments> What's his name Cormac McCarthy does that chapter summary stuff too.

BuffySquirrel> i tend to skip stuff like that. Dune is full of it. i mean, why not just read the summaries and skip the novel?

Xenith> in 3 Men, the chapter summaries added something, often that wasn't in the narrative whereas in this one, they were just alist of things that happened

BuffySquirrel> i think that's a good point

Robin> I love the quotes and the chapter sum stuff. And the humor tossed in throughout - without fanfare.

DaveFragments> I think it is pretentious and silly to add "stuff" to the beginning of chapters.

Robin> I like it - it sets it up for me. I read the ends of books first. I like knowing.

Kiersten> Beginning of the chapter asides sometimes frustrate me because I spend the chapter trying to find the information.

Robin> OK- so I'm the only one who liked the way this was structured?

Xenith> structured?

Kiersten> I didn't dislike it.

DaveFragments> I've read chapter summary stuff that bears no meaning to the story. It's just there to create atmosphere (I hate that gimmick)

Robin> I mean- the set up of the chapters, etc.

evledtr> I didn't read the opening chapter lists, but it didn't bother me that they were there, as I assumed it was a nod to 3 men in a Boat.

Xenith> didn't miss much by not reading them

DaveFragments> That's another thing that can create somnolence in a reader - if they read the other book, they know the reference but if not, then it's a bore

Xenith> some of the references were not obvious, I think

evledtr> I hadn't read the other book, but didn't find it a bore. There was hardly any of it.

DaveFragments> I could find the stuff this telegraphed to the reader. Maybe doing that is unfair, maybe not.

Kiersten> I had the worst Victorian Lit class in college; maybe this will help me feel better about the era.

DaveFragments> It's cutely Victorian and well researched, but I wouldn't consider it a historic example of Victorian Era life

BuffySquirrel> no most certainly not! but it's a romp, so it probably doesn't matter

Kiersten> Oh, I certainly don't think it's Victorian. I just hope that by making light of it I can get over the horrors of that mind-numbingly boring class.

evledtr> We see only one family.

BuffySquirrel> and a pretty strange one

BuffySquirrel> at least she doesn't make the mistake of thinking ponderous = victorian i've read a lot of imitation Victorian and it's usually dreadful

DaveFragments> My dearly departed doggie is greatly missed but I never treated it like Ned treated Cyril. My stars man, get some testicles

Xenith> depends on the dog

Robin> I liked some of the sentences so much I underlined them -yeah, i'm a geek, sue me).

Kiersten> There were some great lines, Rob

Robin> I have the paperback- and on page 173 is one of my favorites - the sentence that is the second para. Loved it.

DragonSlayer> going to quote for us?

Xenith> mine's gone back to the library

DragonSlayer> mine's in one of five twenty-book-high stacks

DaveFragments> I have the book club hardback - - it's got 400 some smalelr pages of tiny type

Kiersten> Type it out for us, Robin?

DragonSlayer> that'll keep her busy :D

Robin> "She also fell very slowly, and during the time it took her to collapse onto the carpet, I registered a number of impressions:" is the sentence. The reason I loved it and noticed it is because that's the way people think - they do think in slow time-fast time like that - and to me, this mirrored the book so well, and this whole slipstrema approach, but brought to a moment.

DragonSlayer> cool, Robin--thanks for sharing :)

DaveFragments> Did anyone find the discussion of ULTRA, the Enigma Machine or Coventry strange?

Xenith> had no idea what ultra was

evledtr> Strange?

DragonSlayer> Dave posted a page on ULTRA. a bit late perhaps :D

DragonSlayer> i had great fun working out who was going to be The Mysterious Lover

Xenith> I guessed Mr C early

DaveFragments> THey telegraphed it as the Butler with all that Peter Wimsey talk

DragonSlayer> well, i knew the cat was in the basket, even if i didn't guess mr C! lol

Xenith> there is a quote at the start of one of them chapters about using a false name in a country house

DragonSlayer> ah that should have tipped me off

Xenith> although because of that, I did think it was Terence for a while

DragonSlayer> what did people dislike? apart from it being a bit slow

Xenith> I reckon the bulldog should have been a fox terrier

evledtr> I disliked nothing.

DaveFragments> That's it with my dislikes - slow

Kiersten> Mostly my only complaint is that I have to focus a lot. And with my two-year-old climbing all over me any time I try to erad, that's kind of hard. It's why I read a lot of YA these days.

Robin> I didn't think it was slow at all. Not everything has to zing along to make me happy. i like to think as I read.

evledtr> I went to a Connie Willis reading once at a....conference.

DaveFragments> how did she sound in person?

Robin> What was her voice like at the conference?

evledtr> Delightful.

Kiersten> She seems like she would be terribly clever and fun to talk to.

DaveFragments> The book has a great sense of humor.

evledtr> Anyone here read Doomsday Book?

Xenith> no

Robin> Nope/

Kiersten> No--is it very similar?

Xenith> I don't think so

DaveFragments> No, I got a stack of unread books

Robin> This is the first book like this that I've read.

evledtr> It's not funny, but it has Mr. Dunworthy and the Net.

DaveFragments> Well that net sets up the plot - the time paradox

evledtr> No doubt Dragonslayer has read it.

DragonSlayer> yes

Kiersten> Do all of her books intersect?

DragonSlayer> the time traveling folk also appear in Firewatch, which is a short story about the Blitz

Robin> Is this an actual series then? Or looser than that?

DragonSlayer> it's looser than that i think

Robin> Cool.

evledtr> And while they don't use the net, Lincoln's Dreams and Passage involve going into the past. It's a Connie Willis specialty. Doomsday Book involves accidentally going back to the time of the plague and getting trapped. It would be Robin's cup of tea.

Robin> Why? I'm not disagreeing- just wondering.

evledtr> More like Lit Fic.

DragonSlayer> it's a device that she uses in various ways Doomsday Book is very different--it's a sad book i think in a series you would expect more continuity of feel

DaveFragments> The bombing of Coventry is still controversial. Some still believe that Churchill knew in advance.

Robin> Sounds like the Pearl Harbor thing.

DaveFragments> Yes, very much the same - - someone knew something was wrong but not what and couldn't act on it at the time. The Allies in WW2 actually did send spotter planes out to fool the Nazi's They did disseminate bad info about how they found Rommel - She has that history correct

Robin> I'm not so worried about the history being absolutely accurate - as long as it's in the ball park- because I think accurate histroy is so often in the 'eye of the beholder'.

Xenith> history changes a lot

Kiersten> So--what do you think about writers who always use the same theme/style? Stick with a good thing, or branch out?

Xenith> Kiersten: depends if they're relying on it because it's easy & works, or they're exploring parts of it/developing ideas/you know

Kiersten> Ah. I've read some authors and just gotten tired--feels like they're writing the same thing over and over. And then there are the ones who are amazing writers, and although there are similarities, there's enough difference. Marilyn Robinson's two books come to mind. I'll have to check out more of Willis'.

DaveFragments> She didn't invent the fact that Coventry was bombed and the implications of it. She didn't invent ULTRA and all it implies

Robin> I think most authors travel repeatedly through the same territory. Hemingway. Fitzgerald.

evledtr> If you're successful and want to make money, you give 'em what they want. Which is what they loved the first time around.

DaveFragments> Robin: I was like that for 20 years - only read the same stuff over and over. Then I joined a book group and they cured me of that

Robin> Sounds right to me, EE. I have to tell ya, Dave, that if it weren't for EE's idea about switchin genres around, i'd have stayed in my comfort zone.

Xenith> reading the same thing all the time

Robin> Glad you did it the way you did it, sparky.

DragonSlayer> heh, the book is safely in my comfort zone

Kiersten> Hey, if someone paid me to write, I'd write whatever they wanted. It's definitely fun reading something I wouldn't have known about otherwise.

DragonSlayer> hacks used to do well not sure how it works now but there is work for hire out there if you look

Kiersten> Yes, but you have to find the work first...

DragonSlayer> find sites for book packagers

DaveFragments> I joined the "Gay and Lesbian" book club at Border back in the 80's and when that ended, I joined the literary group. I knew I shouldn't join "mystery" or "Sci-Fi" that's all I read from when I was a kid.

DragonSlayer> sometimes when i stray outside SFF i find i bring my reading approach with me which can be fatal to more literary books

Robin> I studied literary fiction - and have read it for quite a while. But really- if well-written, i'm seeing the whole lit fic thing is a construct. I'd say this is well-written enough to qualify. plus, some of the utter crap that passes for lit fic now is self-serving scab-picking schlock.

DragonSlayer> i think a lot of litfic feels like it's written with eternity in mind
Kiersten> Yeah, I'd totally qualify this as lit fic.

DragonSlayer> but what's "eternal" is popular fiction. the litficcers would have a fit! loll the stuff people read

DaveFragments> oooh - I know lots of Sci-Fi that way (self-serving scab-picking schlock)

DragonSlayer> well Sci Fi is almost by definition schlock as opposed to science fiction :)

Xenith> lol

DaveFragments> The entire Star Trek franchise ruined me for time travel stories

Xenith> (bit slow there squirrel)

DragonSlayer> i was restraining self, Australia

DragonSlayer> would you recommend this book to your friends, folks?

evledtr> Unequivocally.

DragonSlayer> you really loved it, EE?

evledtr> I'm a sucker for time travel and good humor. Best of both worlds.

DaveFragments> I'm going to take it up to my Mother to read, maybe my Niece's 13 year old DragonSlayer> i love time travel

DaveFragments> It's a fun book to read and that sense of humor is enough for me not to badtalk it

DragonSlayer> hard to find good time travel books tho

Xenith> too many bad ones, yes

Julie> what do you consider a bad one?

Robin> I'd recommend this, even to my nose in the air friends.

DragonSlayer> i hate the whole go-back-in-time-to-stop-x and discover-you're-the-one-who-causes-x

Xenith> yeah

DragonSlayer> mostly i read them in slush Julie trying to think of a published one offhand

Xenith> and ones that rely on their clever & original (haha) idea rather than good writing & characters

DragonSlayer> i think bad books fade more quickly, thank goodness

DaveFragments> Bad Sci Fi - Aliens land and try to take ove rworld and someone has the only one of a kind special ZAP gun that defeates them in 30 seconds. YAWN!

Robin> I kinda like the time travel thing - because if ANYONE goes back in time, even in their own lives or the life of a loved one - finding root causes is what's gonna happen.

Xenith> unless they're really, really bad

Julie> Dog is a time travel book?

DragonSlayer> yes well, it uses time travel as a device there's lots more to it than that

evledtr> It's set in the future, but most of it takes place in the past.

DaveFragments> In this, the slipstream or net gimmick of time travel is sufficiently simple to not intrude on the story

Kiersten> Yeah, it's really treated as such a given it's not a big deal.

DragonSlayer> it's all in how you use it

evledtr> There were a few times I wanted her to quit yammering about slippage and get on with it.

DragonSlayer> yeah, it did get mentioned a lot

Xenith> yeah

Robin> But beautifully done.

DragonSlayer> i liked when the narrator ended up in the Wrong Place and nearly fell off the cathedral

Xenith> it got a bit confusing and it was all due to something 500 years in the future?

DragonSlayer> time travel's futsy like that

DaveFragments> I thought that was a little gimmicky - they were manipulated from 600 years in the future

Xenith> here is everyone running around thinking they're the centre of the problem and oh you're not! haha!

Robin> Yeah. I'm more used to being manipulated by the past, but ya know..

DragonSlayer> it's ironic that they don't realise while they're manipulating that they too are being manipulated

DragonSlayer> it demonstrates human egotism

DaveFragments> The best that science can say right now, is that even if time travel is possible, you cannot change the past.

DragonSlayer> well, time travel IS possible . .. . for particles anyway

Robin> Boy would I like to though. Change things.

DragonSlayer> ah, meddling!

Robin> Damnb straight.

DaveFragments> The premise is that no matter how you try, the past is fixed. That means no alternate realities or histories

DragonSlayer> that's the premise, but it may be wrong

Robin> I'd do what we all fantasize about - I'd go back to about sixteen. and do almost all things differently.

evledtr> I'd go forward in time to see what I was going to miss.

Julie> good thought, EE.

Robin> I'd start over so I wouldn't miss what I now know I need and care about.

DragonSlayer> i'd go back in time and give my younger self judo lessons

DragonSlayer> and a pony

Kiersten> lol, Buffy. I'm great with my past. I'd like to see what's coming.

Robin> My past is..checkered.

Kiersten> Yes, but infinitely more interesting than mine ; )

Julie> I would like to go back I think.

Robin> Well, I guess we can see the appeal of this type of novel, huh?



Coming in late August: Book Chat 6. The Devil in the White City, by Erik Larson. Murder, magic and madness at the fair that changed America. Narrative nonfiction.

The Eric Larson/The Devil in the White City Book Chat

August 28, 2008

The Devil in the White City (Nonfiction/History), Erik Larson

Not long after Jack the Ripper haunted the ill-lit streets of 1888 London, H.H. Holmes (born Herman Webster Mudgett) dispatched somewhere between 27 and 200 people, mostly single young women, in the churning new metropolis of Chicago; many of the murders occurred during (and exploited) the city's finest moment, the World's Fair of 1893. Larson's history is a novelistic yet wholly factual account of the fair and the mass murderer who lurked within it.

Nominated for the National Book Award, nonfiction, 2003, and scheduled to be a motion picture, release date 2009.




Evil Editor said... May I begin by nominating this Holmes guy for worst person ever to exist?

Kiersten said... Seconded. Thirded. I can't tell you the things I thought they should have done to him. My husband was rather shocked at my reaction. I was just glad his neck didn't snap and he had to choke to death.

Robin S. said... Oh yeah, that Holmes guy was creepy, it seemed, from birth, from before he was Holmes.

freddie said... YES, EE!!!!!! Talk about a sucky existence. And to think he lived in Chicago. Where we're, of course, not at all familiar with violence.

BuffySquirrel said... can't be worse than hitler, that guy in serbia whose name escapes me, stalin, harold shipman, the dutch guy who would be another harold shipman if killing old people didn't happen to be legal there, etc etc etc

Kiersten said... I don't know, Buffy--they all killed for a purpose. Which doesn't justify it, but there was a point. This guy...killing was the point.

BuffySquirrel said... what was shipman's purpose then?

Evil Editor said... If he were in charge of a country he would have done what all those guys did. Maybe worse.

freddie said... Yes, it's true who buffy mentions killed a lot more people. But they seem like people who killed for mere gain in one way or another. Holmes was someone who LIVED to kill. He even said he felt compelled to do it in the same way a poet feels compelled to sing. (I'm paraphrasing.) But I personally felt Larson got carried away with the architecture stuff.

BuffySquirrel said... well, apparently nobody here has heard of shipman

sylvia said... I've heard of Shipman! Hell, I lived in Shipman's catchment area :)

BuffySquirrel said... shipman was a GP who murdered 100-200 people. his (mostly) elderly (mostly) female patients kept dying and there was talk but nothing was done for years and years and years. the exact death count isn't known because not everybody agreed to exhumations of possible victims

sylvia said... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prescription-Murder-Story-Harold-Shipman/dp/0751529982/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219962551&sr=1-3

freddie said... I remember something about this.

BuffySquirrel said... was a big story for a while

Kiersten said... Hrmm...I wonder if people with this type of disorder are attracted to medicine...because there have been a lot of those, it seems.

Evil Editor said... There's something about Holmes that makes him seem worse. The way his victims were young women setting out on their own, trying to make it in tough times, and then they run into this clown.

BuffySquirrel said... but the public prefer serial killers to be infamous, then caught....oh, yeah, the murders of young women are always sexier :D

Evil Editor [Possibly it's the author: tell me Holmes killed 100 people, it's a number. Show me his death hotel and put me in the place of the women, and I cringe.]

freddie said... Yeah, the way he planned everything and even built the hotel to kill people. Talk about a haunted house.

Evil Editor said... You check into a hotel and the next thing you know you're being tossed into a pit of quick lime, or a kiln. Holmes makes Jack the Ripper look like a boy scout. That hotel he built. Yikes.

Robin S. said... Yeah- the discussion about the young women from rural towns doing something that was apparently relatively new for the time, and going to the city to find work - and in that new vulnerability - finding users like madams and vermin like Holmes.

BuffySquirrel said... eh, used to be british hotels where you would check in and during the night the top of the four poster would be lowered and you would be suffocated in your sleep

freddie said... The part with the kids at the end was really sad. What Holmes did to them.

Kiersten said... Sorry, I was busy getting my query rejected. Where were we...ah, yes. I wondered at his diagnosis of Holmes. It seems to me he was a sociopath, not a psychopath, so now I have another thing to research. Dang Larson. It also makes you wonder about our macabre fascination with this sort of thing--In Cold Blood, this book--we're horrified, but at the same time, I liked those chapters more, because I wanted to know what was going to happen next.

BuffySquirrel said... i thought sociopath was the new name for psychopath.

Kiersten said... Yes, exactly, the diagnosis seemed outdated to me.

BuffySquirrel said... if i'm going to read about serial killers i generally prefer more scholarly works. i'm not sure it's worse to lure people into hotels and murder them than it is to take advantage of a person's trust in their doctor to murder them, tbh

Kiersten said... I don't think there's a "worse" in those situations, Buffy. Evil is evil.

BuffySquirrel said... i don't find "evil" a useful term myself :)

Freddie: why isn't evil a useful term? Too broad?

buffysquirrel: it's meaningless explains nothing


freddie said... So what did you think of the book?

BuffySquirrel said... as a book about a serial killing bastard with all the conscience of a mosquito, it was a very good book about the fair

Robin S. said... I really enjoyed it- and I really enjoy your all's comments.

Kiersten said...Turns out I hate architecture. Now I feel so uncultured.

BuffySquirrel said... I would have liked less architecture.

sylvia said... I quite liked the architecture - or at least, I like the combination of Burnham and Holmes in terms of getting the bigger picture. I liked the feeling of context. A murderer in the city isn't the full context, there are other things happening around.

Evil Editor said... This was like two books. A history book and a novel, except most of the novel was true.

BuffySquirrel said... Here's how I imagine it went.

Larson: I wanna write a book about the architects who designed the World's Fair in Chicago. Also, pork.

Publisher: Nobody wants to read about architects. They're boring.

Larson: But the World's Fair--

Publisher: Boring.

Larson: The mayor gets murdered.

Publisher: When?

Larson: At the end.

Publisher: (yawns) Too late.

Larson: If I could find some juicy murders to spice it up...?

Publisher: We'd take a look.

freddie said... Ah, I saw that on your blog, buffy. I came away with the same feeling. But I did read in an interview on the site for the book that Larson had to piece more together about Holmes. Like there wasn't as much information readily available. So that could have been a factor.

sylvia said... I see your point Buffy - and yeah, I can see that angle as well. I guess I'd have read either novel so to get them combined was fine by me ;)

Evil Editor said... I agree that the connection between Holmes and the fair was weak.

freddie said... I also thought the Holmes/fair connection was rather weak. It kind of gives credence to buffy's point that he put in Holmes to sell more copies. But Larson claims he started with Holmes. (I did a little homework.)

BuffySquirrel said... homework? i read the book what more do you want! lol :D

Evil Editor said... The notes in the back of the book explain a lot of his reasoning for things that he didn't get from Holmes's memoir and news reports.

Robin S. said... I saw the end of book notes- they were as interesting as the book - almost made me wish he'd built his search INTO the book.

freddie said... homework? i read the book what more do you want! lol :D Hah! Well, I asked to "lead" the chat for this month, so I felt I should go above and beyond. Although I can see it's more of a task of reigning everyone in. Or riding the horse til it drops. Or . . . can you see I'm due for a bad analogy exercise? I didn't read the notes in the back. Oops.

BuffySquirrel said... eh, he claims the book is true, then makes stuff up; that's annoying i hated it when he tried to tease us with what the big attraction was when we knew it was the freaking ferris wheel. all that stuff about what the woman thought and did while she was locked in the death room was made up. do all n/f writers secretly want to be novelists?

Kiersten said... When faced with a long, long fighting over getting things built and delays and struggles chapter, I actually skipped ahead to see what Holmes was up to. Then I went back and read it.

Oh, can we talk about his heavy-handed and annoying use of foreshadowing? When he would drop a "soon he would find out..." or "little did he know..." or "what the next month would bring..." line I just wanted to chuck the book and go look everything up on Wikipedia. Would have saved me a lot of pages. I think that's a fine tool every now and then, but he used it way, way too often to try and build suspense.

BuffySquirrel said... /me hates "little did he know"

Robin S. said... I checked into Larson's other books - for instance, Thunderstruck, I believe- and he combines something new and novel about an age with a story - like with T-Struck... the Marconi and a purported killer fleeing on a ship. Except the ship could receive communications. Change - looked at in a new way. I kind of liked that,

sylvia said... The one who actually pissed me off was Larson. I quite enjoy novelisations of factual events but I do feel I need to know where the lines are drawn and that I can trust the author. Larson came across a few times as very emotional, I didn't feel I could trust him to accurately represent.

Evil Editor said... The fair part was saved to some extent by how impossible it was for them to put it together. I Googled the fair and looked at some pictures of the buildings. Unbelievable that they put that together at that time. The pyramids? Child's play.

freddie said... Yep. But that's something about the book that annoyed me. It had hardly any pictures. I had a hard time imagining (and believing) the grandeur. But I do feel the book was saved by how impossible it was to put it together. But that's Chicago for you. We're always slapping things together at the last minute.

Kiersten said... I liked learning about it, and the fact that they pulled off the fair really was amazing. I probably would have been happier just reading a few pages about it and looking at the pictures online though. Thinking about it, however, it wouldn't have had as much an impact. Since he made me wade (and wade and wade and wade) through all the muck Burnham had to go through, I really did appreciate it more in the end.

Evil Editor said... Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thirty pictures and they could have shortened the book a lot.

Robin S. said... I have to say I wish he'd stuck with Holmes a bit more and built SOME of the fair into the story.

BuffySquirrel said... i thought the author liked holmes a little too much

freddie said... Really, buffy? You thought the author liked Holmes?

BuffySquirrel said... yes, i did

freddie said... I got the sense the author really admired Burnham (and for good reason). I think the author liked Olmsted (sp?), too.

Evil Editor said... Olmsted's work lives on. Biltmore House, Central Park...

Robin S. said... ...and, believe it or not, the parks in Louisville, Olmstead designed. They're gorgeous.

Evil Editor said... What amazes me is how little I knew about any of this. You'd think there'd be more mention of it in history books.

Kiersten said... It's true, EE, I can't believe everyone has heard of Jack the Ripper but not Holmes.

Evil Editor said... Also, it appears the national press was no different back then than now, jumping on sensational stories.

Robin S. said... Kind of a Gonzo nonfictional blending account.

sylvia said... OK, this bit is factual about Holmes: He describes a turning point in his life as the day some older boys forced him into a village doctor's office and face-to-face with a skeleton. "It was a wicked and dangerous thing to do to a child of tender years and health," Holmes says, though he admits that the experience cured him of his fears. He attributes his desire to go into medicine to this memorable incident. Larson writes: The incident probably did occur, but with a different choreography. More likely the two older boys discovered that their five-year-old victim did not mind the exursion; that far from struggling and shrieking, he merely gazed at the skeleton with cool appreciation.

Robin S. said... Yep, Syl, I think the kid was born the way he was. I agree.

sylvia said... Now isn't that just total fantasy? Larson, I mean, not me. Well, ok, both.

BuffySquirrel said... personally don't see any reason why a five-year-old should be scared of a skeleton anyway

freddie said... I agree, too, but it kind of bugged me that Larson made that statement. The truth is, no one really knows.

Kiersten said... Buff. I thought a lot of the side characters were interesting. I'll probably read up on Sol Bloom.

Evil Editor said... He seemed to do his best to throw in every famous name of anyone who had anything to do with the fair, or even went to it.

Robin S. said... I agree about the famous name tossing. There were so many elements that could have been amazing and were still good, but could've been more - by bringing in less.

freddie said... The stuff with Sullivan cracked me up. Although I probably shouldn't laugh at the bitterness.

Robin S. said... If nothing else, I learned a lot about a time/an era I knew little about.

kierstenbrazier: What attracts us as readers to these horrible things. Because really, like someone brilliant who I forget said it said, could he have sold it without the Holmes aspect?

buffysquirrel: i wasn't attracted to it. glamourisation of serial killers, i hate

akasylvia: The best "murder" non-fiction I read lately was Helter Skelter. The author is emotionally invested but, in my opinion, comes across as more trustworthy than Larson

freddie: i agree, kiersten. no way could have they sold the book with it just about the fair. i mean and made it a bestseller

evledtr: Apparently there've been books about the fair and about Holmes. Whether any made money I don't know.

buffysquirrel: it's a much better book about the fair than it is a book about holmes for me

robin: Yeah- it's too bad the fair wasn't simply background.

buffysquirrel: i wasn't interested much in the fair, especially being told every two minutes how wonderful chicago is

freddie: hey!

evledtr: Is Chicago that great freddie?

kierstenbrazier: lol...I didn't think it made chicago sound wonderful at all

freddie: it is pretty great except for our mobsters

buffysquirrel: whether it is or not, i didn't need to be told about it all the time. also, it sounded vile

evledtr: Do they still have slaughterhouse tours?

akasylvia: ee: ew!

freddie: i don't think so

buffysquirrel: people nowadays want to pretend meat is born in plastic packets

robin: Larson does this mixing and it' s well received - he writes well - andI enjoyed it - but I think a different mix, as had been mentioned, might have read better to me.

akasylvia: I'll tell you a really good example is Patricia Cornwall, with her Jack the Ripper expose

freddie: I do think the whole reason for putting on the fair was kind of childish - just to stick it to Paris and New York City

robin: Isn't that how most decisions by guys are made?

kierstenbrazier: lol, robin

evledtr: Someone had to stick it to NYC

freddie: yes, Robin!

robin: Mine's bigger'n yours. I mean we even got to the MOON to beat the Russian guys.

buffysquirrel: i found larson utterly unreliable

akasylvia: Buffy: yes, unreliable is exactly the description I was lacking

freddie: Why unreliable? Just wondering. because of the scenes he made up?

buffysquirrel: he made stuff up

akasylvia: OK, found an example Holmes is reminiscing about running into a beggar with a false leg. And there's a photo taken, and Holmes says "I kept it for many years and the thin terror-stricken face of that bare-footed, home-spun clad boy I can yet see"

kierstenbrazier: That's a quote directly from Holmes, though

robin: I figured Holmes was doing a 'poor me, don't kill me' thing, like Ted Bundy.

akasylvia: Larson points out he was in prison... "hoping to engineer a swell of public sympathy. While it is charming to imagine the scene, the fact is the cameras that existed during Mudgett's (Holmes) boyhood made candid moments alomost impossible to capture, especially when the subject was a child. If the photographer saw anything in Mudgett's eyes, it was a pale blue emptiness that he knew, to his sorrow, no existing film could ever record" THAT'S what I mean by unreliable. He totally makes the point that Holmes is full of shit Then he adds this random "dead eyes" fantasy stuff

buffysquirrel: yeah, Syl, often goes one step too far

akasylvia: Which makes me feel I can't trust his description

buffysquirrel: i don't think we can trust larson at all

kierstenbrazier: How did you guys like Larson stylistically?

buffysquirrel: i didn't i went off him immediately he described the slaughter of cattle as murder

freddie: oh right. I remember reading this on your blog

buffysquirrel: yeah, i pretty much covered what i thought in my review

evledtr: I consider the harvesting of wheat murder.

buffysquirrel: yes, EE, cos you're EVIL There's a hell of a lot of wheat-murdering going on around here atm

robin: I think Larson writes well- but the subject matter is too scattered for me- the black white /good bad is a little too simple - although i did find it interesting that some crimes were eaier to commit with the trubulence of society and the growth of working class single women, etc.

freddie: truthfully, I can't quite put my finger on why the book didn't grab me. I think it was the way Larson tried to play up the irony of Holmes being in the Black City when the White City was displayed. Not much irony there. Big cities attract criminals.

buffysquirrel: big cities create criminals

robin.a.billings: Oh. I guess they do- but there are some doozies in the country as well- out there where no one can see them.

kierstenbrazier: It was a very dry style, I think. Transferred from newspaper writing--bare bones. Not that I need a lot of embellishment, but this just didn't resonate with me voice-wise.

akasylvia: I don't think Larson understands the difference between reporting and embellishing - that's why I like unreliable to describe him

freddie: So Larson is kind of a glorified reporter here. An unreliable glorified reporter. Larson claimed in an interview that he does all his own research. Maybe that's a problem here.


evledtr: I think they should have perserved the white city, or at least the most impressive part. I realize it got burned down by strikers, but they were letting it go anyway.

buffysquirrel: it wasn't built to last tho

kierstenbrazier: Have any of you ever been to Balboa Park in San Diego? Same thing--built it for a fair/exposition, but then preserved it. It's great. I wish they could have done the same thing there, like you said, EE. But they went back and altered one of the buildings so it could--same thing they did with them in San Diego. Just seemed like a collossal waste of time and money.

freddie: The fair or the book, K? lol

kierstenbrazier: lol, both, Freddie, both. Actually I was talking about just the book.


kierstenbrazier: I think he only mentioned Holmes' eyes about every other page. Blue eyes. Dead blue eyes. Mesmerizing blue eyes. We get it. Dude had blue eyes.

buffysquirrel: oh god yes EVERY WOMAN loved him. that's why he had to go out of the city and back to someone he used to know for his next victim. cos they were queueing up. i don't think larson likes women

freddie: I would have liked to know a lot more about his downfall and how that came about. he didn't go into nearly enough detail for me about that.

akasylvia: Holmes is freakily scary but that stands on his own. Maybe Larson was afraid we wouldn't hate him sufficiently?

kierstenbrazier: Yeah, Sylvia. But really, how could you not hate the guy?

evledtr: I hate him still.

buffysquirrel: but that's just larson's take and i don't trust him to have gone into the subject in enough depth to justify such statements

akasylvia: I did like the reference to why it's the Windy City though :)

kierstenbrazier: I thought it was interesting that no one in Chicago even looked into him, but he tried to pull the same stuff in Texas and didn't get anywhere.

Robin: Who? Holmes?

kierstenbrazier: Yeah

He went to Texas to the land he stole from Minnie, and tried to build another hotel
but the law enforcement was really wary of him, and he knew he couldn't do it there

akasylvia: I think that's what the Burnham bits brought to it - I could totally understand that in Chicago everything was so crazy, people just didn't notice

robin.a.billings: How did I miss that? Damn.

freddie: Well, Texan men do think they are the law - lol

kierstenbrazier: It was one of the random foreshadowings buried in a chapter
I think

buffysquirrel: murders of a few young women don't interfere with business, so what's the problem?

kierstenbrazier: or maybe I got it from stuff I read on the side...dang memory, I remember everything I read, just not the source.

robin: Yeah- you got that right, Kiersten. I know about that firsthand. Or did.

freddie: i think that was in the book, k

kierstenbrazier: Yeah, I thought so...

freddie: So it wasn't a very strong book, I'd say

robin: So why was it a bestseller? EE?

akasylvia: The book was actually probably my least favourite of our chat books so far. But I didn't at any point throw it on the floor, which is good :D

freddie: D (my roomie) said that everyone he's talked to has raved about it
i was shocked . I guess they're biased, being in Chicago

akasylvia: lol Freddie - just maybe :)

Robin: I liked a lot about it - I just wished for tweaks - and for it to be shorter - less documentary in places - mood-setting and factbuilding don't really require that, I don't think.

buffysquirrel: yeah what did it tell us in the end? why holmes did what he did? no

akasylvia: I loved the concept more than the finished product

buffysquirrel: no attempt at serious analysis at all

akasylvia: Also - was it just me? I took four times as long to read this as I normally spend reading a book.

freddie: i agree, Syl

buffysquirrel: took me a long time to read cos it kept having to be picked up after hitting the wall
robin: I did take a while to read it- but I think the dry style lends itself to that.

evledtr: That was true of history books compared to English in school, too.

freddie: It did take a long time. I had to stop reading after a few pages
then pick it up again

robin: It needed a chopping kind of edit.

buffy: if I'd trusted him more, I'd have been happy with simply "here's what happened, you work it out" we still don't know what happened. only that larson thinks women are cattle

freddie: Right, buffy! I never felt I got a clear picture of what was going on with Holmes.

akasylvia: But as he decided he was going to tell us his viewpoint and visions, I think he should have taken it further

robin.a.billings: Yeah- with his viewpoint and visions, i'd have beem happy to hear more on that level.

freddie: I think Larson wants to be taken seriously as a historian.

buffysquirrel: then he should become one

robin.a.billings: Well, it does look like he did his homework on the history.

buffysquirrel: but he hasn't the historian's approach to the writing

freddie: but the money, buffy. think of the money. :)

buffysquirrel: eh, money. you can't eat it

akasylvia: I won't take him seriously as a historian because of the emotive bits he puts in

kierstenbrazier: How could you write this without that, though?

evledtr: There's a gigantic book of the fair with info on each building and illustrations you can view on line. There's not nearly as much info on Holmes available.

akasylvia: I guess that's what it comes down to for me. I love fiction. I love non-fiction. I enjoy lots of fictionalised non-fiction. Decide what you are writing plskthx

buffysquirrel: Kiersten, try reading Trafalgar, the biography of a battle by roy adkins
to see how a historian approaches a subject

evledtr: He wrote a nonfiction book and a novel. And combined them.

buffysquirrel: well, i don't approve

akasylvia: EE: exactly. And I guess it makes me feel like I don't know where I stand. Which book are we in at the moment.

akasylvia: One thing I >did< like that he did was to make it clear that anything that was in quotes was quoted from another source

buffysquirrel: he claims at the beginning it's all true and it's not

freddie: I did think the end was creepy. where all this terrible stuff happened to the investigaters, etc. at the end

kierstenbrazier: My senior capstone course was about this exact thing, actually. The novel as history and history as a novel

robin: There's another historian I really enjoyed. Keegan I think his name was. Yeah. John Keegan. the Face Of Battle. Amazing book.

akasylvia: One device that I thought was quite clever was in a nonfiction book where he used "said" for actual quotes and "says" for "I am putting words into their mouth"

freddie: Oh, I want to read Face of Battle!

robin: That is one amazing book.

akasylvia: http://www.serialkillerdatabase.net/hhholmes.html I didn't want to be the only one freaked out by photos in the middle of the night :P

robin: Larson 2006 book is about another killer - Dr Crippen.

buffysquirrel: oh, i bet he messes that up too. eh, you know who really likes reading about serial killers? serial killers!

freddie: you know, Holmes just doesn't look all that good-looking to me. must be the looks of a different time

buffysquirrel: his vampire-like hold over women is just larson's imagination

akasylvia: eleven books about him so I have no excuse for never having heard of him before

freddie: God, he looks stoned in that pic

robin: depends upon the women. I'd say we're not the bell curve average, ladies.

akasylvia: LOL you think?

robin: Well, we have spines and IQs. some people are pitiful, some gullible. I, personally, prefer being a smartass bitch.

freddie: right on, Robin

buffysquirrel: but larson tries to make out no woman could resist him yet he had to leave chicago to find a victim.

robin: Yeah. Sure they couldn't - SOME couldn't- the vulnerable ones. He only went after the type he knew he could control.

buffysquirrel: sure, men like him are good at spotting vulnerable people

robin: Oh, Larson is married and has two kids, Not that that means 100% much of anything. But Still.

freddie: I don't know that I would say Larson doesn't like women. I think he just was going more for drama. Dismissive, maybe.

buffysquirrel: larson is dismissive of women doesn't sound any better

freddie: It isn't meant to sound better. I just think that's more accurate.

akasylvia: I think that's absolutely it - Holmes looked for vulnerable women and preyed on them. it's not rocket science.

kierstenbrazier: Once you learn to recognize it, vulnerability is easy to spot.

robin: Exactly. you can look over a group of people and know who the easy touches are. Happens in business all the time.

buffysquirrel: sure, when they showed a bunch of rapists film of women collecting their kids from school, they mostly chose the same women as potential victims

robin: Exactly, Buff. So Holmes took info readily available and used it because he was a dickhead psycho.

kierstenbrazier: lol, Robin, I like the way you talk. Couldn't do it myself, but it makes me smile coming from you

robin: Hey. Glad you don't mind. I actually hold back because I worry about you!

kierstenbrazier: (and thanks, Robin ; ) only the "worst" four letter words give me pause.)

robin: I don't see this as about Larson and women, to be honest.

kierstenbrazier: I don't either, Robin. Hadn't even thought about that at all until you all started bringing it up. And I tend to be sensitive to women's issues and portrayals in lit.

buffysquirrel: it's just an impression larson gives by the words he uses.

akasylvia: I think Larson is over-emotional and annoying in that he writes this stuff (how bad Holmes was as a child, how the women couldn't resist him) and so it becomes easy to react to Larson rather than the story. Which both buffy and I are clearly stuck on :)

buffysquirrel: :D

freddie: I do wonder if part of that was the time in which we're talking - if maybe he was trying to portray how women were generally seen at that time?

buffysquirrel: yeah but larson isn't a product of that time and it wasn't a standard of the time to refer to the slaughter of animals as murder

freddie: yes, but that's a different point I wonder if Larson is a vegan or something

buffysquirrel: no, it's not a different point it's the same point equating murder with the slaughter of animals trivialises murder

robin: So you're saying Larson has engendered feelings about himself by the way he wrote - and by the choices he made in describing the people in his book.

buffysquirrel: yes, his attitudes get in the way of the narrative

akasylvia: Have you guys read Patricia Cornwall?

robin: Yep- read Cornwall a bit -

akasylvia: She wrote various novels, one series took off. As the series went on, she did more and more horrible things to her characters to the point that I, who liked her style as a quick read, couldn't bear to get the next book

robin: Yeah- Cornwall had a few pretty good reads, and then it sank.

akasylvia: Then she wrote a non-fiction book about Jack the Ripper's identity, and she starts with this scene with her editor where she's screeching about it, that she KNOWS she's right, she knows she's worked it out, everyone else is a fool

freddie: why would she write about that, i wonder?

akasylvia: That's the completely over-the-top version of letting your emotion take over to the point that you should not be writing this non-fiction book

buffysquirrel: cornwell accused that artist, is that right? what was his bleeding name

robin: She wrote it because she felt she'd becone a professional problem solver, murder-wise. And because it paid well. Good reasons, no?

akasylvia: buffy: yes. And I was fine with an accusation. But not the emotionalism. Not the "gut instinct, I just know it!"

Robin: yes but she was still writing fiction, in my opinion

buffysquirrel: cornwell read that guy's book, the guy who said it was the masons, and basically ripped off his idea. did EE go to sleep? EE, are you laughing at us?

evledtr: Sorry, weredingos were desperate.

kierstenbrazier: So were the werechildren. The werechildren would love the weredingos. It probably wouldn't be mutual.



ChrisEldin said... I haven't read this, but OMG these comments are complete teasers! Sounds like an awesome book. I never heard of Holmes---will google, but am afraid...

sylvia said... I enjoyed this - thanks !

Julie Weathers said... Ah, I didn't realize this was the book. I'm fairly familiar with the story. Glad I didn't read the book. These things bother me too much.

The White/Lindsay How I Got Published Book Chat

BuffySquirrel said...I thought there were way too many thriller/suspense/mystery/crime authors. Like, almost all of them!

Evil Editor said...So, did they try to get authors other than mystery/thriller authors, and get few responses? Or did they mostly just contact m/t authors?

Kiersten said...I was wondering that, too. And if your success story consists of, "My dad is best friends with Tom Clancy," can we beat you with the book?

Evil Editor said...Perhaps these essays were solicited at a mystery writers convention.

Sylvia said...It was very biased towards thrillers, wasn't it.

Kiersten said....Are the authors coming, EE? Because I'm not in a nice mood. But if they're coming, I'll filter better.)

Evil Editor said....I contacted the guy who won the auction twice with no response.

BuffySquirrel said...I thought this was a great resource book, but as a book group book it's not so great. Who wants to sit down and read a dip-in book cover to cover?

Evil Editor said...He did state in the book that the idea was to show that most successful authors take forever to find that success. So to some extent, the more the merrier. But so many were so similar, it's a case where less would have been more, I think.

Evil Editor said...If you send out 150 requests to authors to contribute, are you ethically required to use them all if they all respond?

Dave said...I wouldn't. But the Authors did.

Evil Editor said...I suppose if I wrote to an author and asked her to contribute a 1500-word essay, I wouldn't have the guts to tell her, sorry, yours didn't make the cut, but these other 150 did.

Robin S. said...I think once they asked for contributions- turning people away would've been bad form. I agree.

Kiersten said...I went through and read all of their sections. Utterly unuseful. And the section on writing synopses was a joke. A few of the author blurbs that I read were good, but mostly they just reinforce that there is no one way to get published. Clearly. Unless your dad is best friends with Tom Clancy. Which, unfortunately, my dad is not.

Robin S. said...I like the anecdotes - each one is about as long as I am on the______ in the morning. Fill in the blank.

Dave F. said...I was lucky to have short chunks of time this month and so I read one or two at a time. But now, they are all a blur.

BuffySquirrel said...I thought the advice by the authors wasn't much use, too. But then that was partly because it was so US-centric.

Kiersten said...It's true, probably not, EE. There was one I liked and that I actually took something from (and granted, I haven't read more than a third of them so far). Page 150, Dayenu. The guy basically says decide now what you will be happy with--actually finishing a manuscript, just getting published, getting on such and such a list, etc., and when that happens, let yourself be happy instead of always thinking, well, yeah, that happened, but this didn't... I thought that was the best piece of advice in the whole book!

Robin S. said...I agree, Sylvia. It makes for nice (fill in the blank) reading.

Evil Editor said...There was variety in the first 20 or 30. Then a loooooong streak of almost all mystery/thriller until I almost quit, but the last 50 pages had some interesting ones. I read most of it during TV commercials.

Robin S. said...EE, what did you think of the synopsis advice? (Page 79).

Kiersten said...I don't know about EE, but really, I thought it was terrible. A girl in my writer's group had a better system on her blog, and she's twenty-four, never been published. Was that really the best they could do?

BuffySquirrel said...Reading the synopsis advice, I thought, these guys are trying to achieve the impossible--making the synopsis interesting. Even agents admit they're dead dull.

sylvia said...The synopsis thing said something like: We read dozens of books - here's what they agree on! The wording just sounds dodgy to me. Obviously you read dozens of books, it's called research.

Evil Editor said...Every editor has a different idea about how to do a synopsis. And a query. They seem to think one paragraph about your plot is plenty, so apparently many editors think so too. I want more than that.

Kiersten said...Robin, this is the best method I've seen for writing a synopsis so far. http://betweenfactandfiction.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-to-write-synopsis.html
And that's a good point, EE. Nothing is standard. I sent out three different queries, got requests and rejections from all of them.

sylvia said...I found the lack of order disconcerting. I'm happy to simply read other people's experience as a "get off your arse and do something" motivator but one would be about writing, the next about queries, one about patience and then dealing with bookstores. You had no real means of knowing what was coming next, or choosing something "inspirational" that suited.

Robin S. said...That's true, Sylvia. I hadn't thought of that - an order would've been nice - so you could go to the section you wanted to read.

Dave said....I agree Sylvia, there didn't seem to be any attempt to put like advice together or to limit the number of letters that were similar.

Kiersten said...Wait--WAIT--So if I want to get published, I'm not supposed to give up??? NOW I get it! Wow! I'm so gonna get published!

Dave F. said...I will tell y'all, and this is coming from a person who had to be organized, the novel and short fiction world is horribly disorganized.

BuffySquirrel said...Some of us regard that disorganisation as their only chance!

Dave F. said...Well the writing world does not need the structure that I used in my life as engineer. But it is startlingly haphazard and capricious. That isn't bad. BTW

BuffySquirrel said...I'd be grateful to anyone who put the stuff from the various sites I read into an accessible, portable form ;).

Dave F. said...I wonder if the authors were so overwhelmed with the number of responses, that they didn't categorize them or sort them. They just loaded them all into the book to fatten the pages? That's a question, and not an opinion.

sylvia said...I want a book that says being disorganised is my only chance.

Robin S. said...I think maybe this book is geared to absolute beginners who need to read about write-ers more than about writi-ng. More to the point, who aren't quite ready to be writing yet, and are still in the early stages of giving themselves permission to do so. I think this is supposed to be inspirational to newbies. Also, I think the editors wanted to have a book published.

Evil Editor said...It's geared toward those who are getting discouraged with their growing pile of rejections.

BuffySquirrel said...I wanted to strangle the "motivational speaker" who congratulated folk on their rejections.

Kiersten said...My growing pile of rejections makes me all happy inside.

Dave F. said...I'm not sure which motivation is better:
1) I'm going to write a Pulitzer prize best seller.
2) I just enjoy writing for myself.

Robin S. said...Rejection hurts, even if it's a nice one.

BuffySquirrel said...2 is achievable. Setting goals that rely only on yourself is probably less disheartening.

Dave F. said...A famous review of Tchaikovsky's brilliant first violin concerto was that it was music that "STINKS TO THE EAR!" Now that is discouraging!

BuffySquirrel said...Also biologically implausible.

Kiersten said...Honestly, the stories of 398 rejections just make me really, really tired.

BuffySquirrel said...There are worse things than rejections and bad reviews.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7649712.stm

Robin S. said...I really enjoyed Christopher Moore's thingie, and Dave Barry.

Evil Editor said...I remember liking J.A. Konrath's. There were five or six that had a piece of advice that was original, but most were Don't give up.

BuffySquirrel said...Konrath came across better than he usually does telling that story.

Kiersten said...And the guy who small-pressed, and then won all the awards and went with bigger presses and was unhappy? He seemed a little...cranky. Dude, you won awards, you got published. Be happy.

Dave said...Keirsten, that's a person who wanted to be a success but didn't know what success meant. When they reached their goal, they found it wasn't as good as what they expected.

sylvia said...The self-publishing woman who said, did it because I had to but wouldn't recommend it other than last resort, I thought was quite good. Brutally honest.

freddie said...Actually, I think there were two women (so far) who were self-published. I especially liked the woman who realized she had a "big ass." Her first agent was Wicked Witch of the East. That was something I found rather interesting. I hear all the time that agents are no fun to deal with, but my experiences with them so far has been great. Except my only experiences with them are on blogs.

Kiersten said...Did anyone else read the woman who was an alcoholic and then when she was recovering wrote some short stories, and lied in her letter and said she was writing a novel, then got a two book deal off of it? Good for her for recovery. Still kind of annoying.

Evil Editor said...The alcoholic who tried to kill herself? Someone else lied, sort of, making fancy stationery and claiming to be someone else.

sylvia said...What about the guy who posted his story out and an agent came back and said I won't represent you unless you hire one of my editors for $6000 ?!

Kiersten said...Oh, yeah, Sylvia! Isn't that a HUGE red flag?? I was surprised they printed that.

BuffySquirrel said...Yeah, the $6000 dollar story was amazing. I find the recommendations about writers' conferences really annoying because They Don't Have Them Where I Live!

Dave F. said...I won't represent you unless you hire one of my editors for $6000. Run away. Run away very fast. You might need an editor... but you pick and pay the editor. AND, not as a condition of a contract offer. It you pay then I will give... bad, bad, bad.

BuffySquirrel said...At least that agent did sell the book. Imagine being $6000 plus out of pocket, and no sale.... I did wonder how much of the book really was the author's, after they paid two people to work on it.

Kiersten said...Yeah, but that's just SO shady, and something a lot of beginning writers wouldn't know.

sylvia said...There were a couple people who paid editors to work with them, and that was cool. But that story really did make me think: how many scammers will now link to that and say, "See? Common practice."

BuffySquirrel said...The scammers and the pay-to-publish people would no doubt seize upon that with glee, yeah.

sylvia said...Did anyone mind that a bunch of the stories were straight from the author's website? I was surprised that it didn't bug me.

Evil Editor said...Is How I Got Published an accurate title? I expected more advice on how these people did it, but many just gave biographical info. I sent it here, I sent it there, finally X bought it, six years later it was published. What Led to Me Getting my Thriller Published is more accurate

Robin S. said...No- I think the title should be more like "our stories - or, how we write..."

BuffySquirrel said...Maybe "How I Didn't Give Up" (or I Wouldn't Be in this Book).

Robin S. said...Ha! I like Buff's better.

Dave F. said...I first thought this was going to be exactly what the title said, but you are right, it turned into cheerleading and how-to. It wasn't what I did years ago.

BuffySquirrel said...It's a great title for selling the book.

sylvia said..."How I got Published" is the wrong question, I agree. Buffy's title is perfect :)

Kiersten said...The Tom Clancy Connection
Or
Other People Who Sometimes Had to Work for It"

sylvia said...That's why the synopsis chapter etc was needed - to justify the title. Although that's the fault of the author's for answering it wrong ;)

BuffySquirrel said...You can only get away with lying about writing a novel if you can write really really fast....

BuffySquirrel said...I thought the book had some nuggets of good advice throughout. I think as a dip-in book for when you're feeling demotivated, it definitely has a place on the writer's shelf.

sylvia said...Several anecdotes made me smile. It'd make a good daily inspirational email type thing. :)

Robin S. said...A wonderful book for beginning writers, nervous about making it as writers.

Dave F. said...Remember, guys and girls, a non-fiction book is completed after the query is accepted. Why didn't we hear the authors stories? Or did I miss that in the book?

Robin S. said...EE, can you look at the big print on page 123? What do you think about that?

Evil Editor said...Robin, I thought that writer was showing sour grapes. There's no telling what will stand the test of time.

BuffySquirrel said...It mostly isn't going to be the stuff that's written to stand the test of time, though.

Kiersten said...I like how they emphasized finding writers' groups and going to conferences. Because really, that helps so much at every stage.

BuffySquirrel said...The authors made some references to how they got the book published. Something about pitching it before they had the contributors lined up, no? Or did I dream that part?

Dave F. said...There's a whole lot of advice out there that seems to forget everyone is different and not everything works for each author.

Robin S. said...I think an editor who gets you and gets your voice is worth anything - but what if they don't, and they mess you up? OK- I have trust issues, people, but even so, there's merit to that. Not EVERYONE is gonna 'get' you.

BuffySquirrel said...I don't think I've read a single book that was referenced in the "How I Got Published" book. Is that a record?

Evil Editor said...The only author I've read is Dave Barry, who has written some very funny books. His interview wasn't funny. I was disappointed.

Robin S. said...Buff, I hadn't thought about what you said - but you're right. Other than a tiny tad of Dave Barry and some Christopher Moore (The Island of the Sequined Love Nun- go read it!) I haven't read them either.

Robin S. said...Well, JB just got home from golf and the Blondster is out for the night, so I'd better go have my salad and stuff. Anyway, thanks for doing these, EE. Bye you guys!

freddie said...Oh yeah. One thing that's getting on my nerves in How I Got Published are the essays that the authors of the book intersperse throughout. I don't know why, but that's bugging me.

Kiersten said...Freddie, I read all of those first, and was kind of annoyed at how not-very-helpful they were. Of course, at this point, I've read everything there is to be read, so short of "here is the exact five step program you need to undertake to guarantee getting published," I guess I wouldn't find much that I thought was very helpful or new.

Evil Editor said...It's not that helpful a book except in drilling into your head that you won't be successful overnight.

Kiersten said...Except you, Freddie. YOU will be successful overnight.

freddie said...Bless you, Kiersten.

Evil Editor said...Those are in the book because the other authors just talked about themselves, and not how to get published.

freddie said... OMG - that is so true!! I did like the one from the guy who was a waiter and had the offer from Disney. If only!

Dave F. said...And they still haven't made the movie. That field is worse than novel writing. There are so few movies and so many scripts.

freddie said...That's true, Dave, but at least the scriptwriters still get paid if the movie is even optioned. That's about all I'd care about at this point. "Look, I don't give a s#$% if it gets made. Send me the effing check!"

The Robert Penn Warren/World Enough and Time Book Chat

World Enough and Time (Historical literary fiction), Robert Penn Warren

In the admixture of wilderness and elegant society that was 1826 Kentucky, Jeremiah Beaumont, a brilliant, imaginative lawyer, stood trial for murdering his benefactor and father figure, the politician Colonel Cassius Fort. Now all the documents are in hand to reconstruct Beaumont's life story - his crime, his trial, his ultimate sin and punishment - and the historian-narrator of World Enough and Time sets about doing just that. He uncovers a burning idealist's search for purpose and his rabid rejection, like other great Promethean heroes of the American mythology, of conventional heroism. Based on the famous murder case known as the Kentucky Tragedy, World Enough and Time is, like its precursor All the King's Men, a fictional wonder that personifies history, philosophy, politics, and passion.

Warren is the only person to have won the Pulitzer prize in both fiction and poetry, won the National Book Award, and was named America's first Poet Laureate.



Evil Editor said...I was just following a few of the links in the Wikipedia article [The Kentucky Tragedy]. This guy who Jeremiah killed was a major player in politics.

ril said...Yes. I'm still skimming the article; quite an intrigue. And he's the first Jereboam I've encountered that I couldn't drink out of.

Robin S. said...Hi, EE, and Ha ril! EE, did you enjoy reading this novel?

Evil Editor said...I did enjoy it. The writing was almost poetic at times. It was more work than most novels, but rewarding, possibly because of that.

Robin S. said...I enjoyed it as well. It was poetic, and spoke through the story about the human condition.

freddie said...I read on the back cover that Warren received Pulitzers for both literature and poetry.

ril said...I found it a little hard to get going. Started to wonder if the role of the editor in the fifties was to add words...

Evil Editor said...It was slow at the beginning, though when I go back now and read the beginning it seems less so. Today it might start with chapter 2. With the first part of chapter 1 as an introduction or even epilogue.

Robin S. said...I agree, EE - and what makes me grin when I'm admitting that - is that a very short time ago, I'd have disagreed with you. I think the beginning as epilogue would have worked beautifully.

Evil Editor said...As a character study of Jeremiah Beaumont, it's engrossing and at times astounding.

Robin S. said...Yes, I agree - it was at times astounding.

Meri said...I love words and well-written literature, but this book was as painful as a boil on my butt. I waded, I slogged, I wondered how the hell the people of the 50's could find this book a "good read"?

Robin S. said...Hey, Meri- I thought you'd love it, girl! Did the beginning bore you? Because I thought it was the kind of novel that grows on a person, after they've given it some time. Another reason why I don't think (and God am I sorry Mr. Warren, because I think you're a true genius) - I don't think this novel would sell today. I'm not saying I'm happy about that. In fact, it makes me sad.

Evil Editor said...Is it really any harder to get through than Faulkner? Moby Dick? Dickens?

BuffySquirrel said...I stuck at page 37 and never got any further. "Scum gathers on ponds, the water is brackish in the well, the cow goes dry, tempers are short, the husband notices that his old wife has lost her teeth and sags in the tits...and all the old meaning of life is lost like water spilled in the ankle-deep dust." Lines like that, really.

ril said...I find Dickens a pretty easy read. I found Moby Dick a bit heavy...

BuffySquirrel said...I haven't tried Faulkner. Moby Dick is virtually unreadable; bad Dickens is unbearable, although I love the good stuff.

Meri said...Ok, so it's easier to read than Faulkner. It was just so frickin' detailed and I never bonded with Jerry or Rach, so by page 200 whatever, when they married I really still didn't care about either of them. For all of Jer's musing about "Justice" and "truth", I thought he seemed egregiously misguided.

Evil Editor said...He was misguided, but also duped.

Meri said...Duped by Rachel, or Fort?

Evil Editor said...Duped by Wilkie and Scroggs. I don't think it's clear whether Rachel was in on it.

Robin said...I agree, EE. Beaumont was duped - as of course was the man on whom he was based.

Evil Editor said...Interesting that in the real case, there was no escape from prison. And to me, that part seemed concocted, yet in lit fic, I wouldn't have expected the author to do that. The way it really played out was more litfic-like than the fictionalized version; the escape seemed more like what an adventure/thriller writer would do.

Robin S. said...I also wondered why Warren took him out of prison, let him escape, when that isn't what happened. But I think it was too show a few things -

---in a way, he was already dead, and in that living death, he found a kind of peace and inner freedom.

---to show once and for all that Rachel was a fucking loon.


Robin S. said...I thought it would be interesting to discuss the 'evolution' in fiction (literary fiction in specific, but I think it works in other genres as well). The difference in the reading of this novel, based on historical 'facts' (whatever they are), and the time and, basically, dedication it took to get this reading going: it was rough sledding at first- because the point of it all was, not lost, but certainly broadly stated. What we now call backstory- but what I really always thought of as the entry into the world of the novel at hand...

Phoenix said...I think it all goes back to what we learn in Lit class - looking at a work from the context of when it was created and comparing to what the world view is now. I'm interested in whether it's the art that dictates the changes in how a work is written and received or whether it's the audience.

Robin S. said...I agree, Phoenix - context is everything. Well, that and a well-written novel. I think this was a beautifully written novel. Buffy mentioned Jeremiah was a misogynist. I think just the opposite - but you have to suspend judgment until you've allowed yourself to enter the man's mind and life.

BuffySquirrel said...No, I thought the AUTHOR was a misogynist.

Robin S. said...Why, Buff? I didn't see that. I think that was narration in the sense of the times. The early 1820s; in the backwoods.

BuffySquirrel said...Somehow that doesn't make it less misogynist. Anyway, I've had enough of that crap in my life; I don't wish to read more :).

Meri said...The author (as Buf'sqrl infers) may have had issues with women, but I thought the portrayal of men's attitudes toward females was at the going rate for the times (1820's). It was a "man's world" then.?!

freddie said...It was. Absolutely.

BuffySquirrel said...When isn't it a man's world? But I don't care to be so crudely reminded of it!

Robin said...On page 323 of my copy, there's a scene during the trial, and the word 'truth' is bandied about. And then Jeremiah thinks...

That is the thing to fear, he thought, not the lie the world tells as a lie, but the lie the world holds as its truth.

Phoenix said...Interesting that "truth" is such a theme here, considering how the author bandied about the facts...

Blogger ril said...Can it be said the author bandied about the facts if it is a work of fiction?

Phoenix said...Fiction based on fact always feels like a cheat to me. Especially when the author is trying to sum up the experience and portray it as the "human condition." If they're going to skew history to their own 'truth' then why not create a pristine version of 'truth'?

freddie said...But to me, writing your own truth is the point of writing a novel, even if it's based on a true story. Otherwise, stick to nonfiction.

Meri said...OH, BTW. I skipped major portions after pg 250 or so. How did Rachel bite the dust? I just read the 1st line of each paragraph from the mid-section until the last 10 pages.

Evil Editor said...Spoiler alert.



She killed herself.

Meri said...Gasp! I'll bet it was done in a weasly way too, poison? What page was that on? Might be worth going back to read ? Unless the author changed up, I didn't find that there was much character or development granted Rachel.

Robin S. said...Meri- pages 452 and 453 in my book.

freddie said...The wiki article stated they tried to commit suicide together, and both succumbed to their wounds soon after. But I think Jeremiah was still hung for the murder.

BuffySquirrel said...Well, they still guillotined people who'd committed suicide during the Terror, so why not hang him, even if dead?

ril said...He was hanged just before his wounds took him. So they served their justice just in time.

freddie said...They had to get their ounce of blood.

Robin S. said...Yeah in real life they hurried to hang him even though he was dying. Gotta love those bureaucrats.

BuffySquirrel said...I gave up on the main character when he refused the inheritance. Sheesh, he could always have changed his name back after the old man died.

Robin S. said...Buff, there was an entire code of honor and the desire to be a 'gentleman'. It screws people up, this life template laid on a person. Superimposed. That was one of the themes of the novel, I believe.

BuffySquirrel said...That's almost certainly true, Robin, but I felt as if the novel expected me to know that, rather than introducing it as an idea that I needed to understand his actions.

Evil Editor said...Note that Jerry attempted to kill Fort through the code of honor--a duel. Fort refused.

Meri said...Yes, an honorable duel to the death was Jer's 1st choice, but since the seduction scene between Rach and Fort was never given, I could hardly summon the need for her reputation to be upheld. Plus I didn't like her, from what little I was given to go on.

freddie said...I wonder if it's possible for people outside the South (in America) to really 'get' this novel in its entirety. There's a whole code of behavior Southerners are taught to follow to which many Northerners just aren't exposed. It's almost like Catholics vs. non-Catholics. There's just a whole subtext there non-Catholics may not get about being Catholic.

BuffySquirrel said...Well, freddie, we have no chance of understanding it if the author doesn't even try to explain it :).

Evil Editor said...I think it's explained. Shown, not told.

BuffySquirrel said...The effects were shown, EE, but I didn't feel the motivations were. But I found the book very difficult to relate to, so am probably not the best judge.

Robin S. said...Hey freddie, I think after reading this - you actually do learn a lot about the times, the inhabitants and the customs of the people here. Some of this stuff just goes on and on. The family honor thing is big with rednecks. I know this for a fact - and it seems especially prevalent in those - like a few of the characters in the novel - who have no honor to be defending. I think it says a lot, as well, about what Jeremiah was - who he was trying to be, although a part of him was fighting himself all along the way.

Sylvia said...I don't know - there are a lot of books that focus on Southern ethics that I don't "get" in terms of they aren't internalised, but I understand and sympathise with the characters and the storyline. But Jeremiah didn't seem about honour, he just seemed .... I don't know. Soggy.

freddie said...I actually am a little familiar with Southern customs, as one of my grandmothers was a New Orleans debutante, but I was just curious as to whether someone from the North—with no exposure to Southern code—might 'get' the novel. Good to know he got a lot of that stuff across.

Meri said...Ah, I was totally tuned in to the "southern way of life" as I cut my eyeteeth on GWTW. I used to think it was a kinda cool code.

Robin S. said...I think it's worth a mention that as a Kentuckian, Warren perfectly captured the feeling of living in the territory/new state. Page 6 of my copy:

"Eastward, cutting off the past, rose the wall of the mountains, and westward the wilderness stretched away forever with its terror and promise. The people had come here to stay, and they would stay."

That really is the feeling of the state, especially when you're down in it, and not in a city. Eloquently stated.

Evil Editor said...I kept expecting Rachel to confess that her stillborn child's father really was a slave. Interesting that the author didn't plant that possibility. Also, Jeremiah seemed extremely careful not to leave clues, I was surprised they immediately pegged him as the murderer. Yet that part was true. Just some random thoughts.

ril said...In the Wikipedia article, it said Jez had told someone he was going to do it and they grassed him up. Was it the same in the book?

Evil Editor said...I'll answer when I figure out what grassed up means.

BuffySquirrel said...Snitched on. Betrayed. Sold out.

Robin S. said...Jeremiah and the narrator spoke a lot about striking out and leaving. Living more naturally - just getting away from people and being himself - Jeremiah mentioned that more than once. And when you see a character in an American novel wanting to go 'west', that usually means they want to reinvent themselves, or find themselves, or be left alone. I think that's related to the theme I mentioned above. Any takers on that one?

ril said...In Grapes of Wrath, they wanted to find work. And food.

BuffySquirrel said...Eh, going West to reinvent yourself? But wherever you go, there you are!

Robin S. said...Well, true ril. I'm just talking in generalities - sorry. For instance, when a character goes south, there's usually trouble. (I can vouch for that one, by the way.) I'm just saying that directions and seasons are mental markers.

Phoenix said...I agree about the mental markers, Robin.

Meri said...Jer shoulda hit the road. And to think that this book was written only 6 yrs or so before "On The Road"

BuffySquirrel said...Yeah, this book and "On the Road" could totally hit the road together....

ril said...I only read 8 pages -- not a judgment on the book, 8 is all I had -- but the opening didn't feel contemporary to the fifties. I'd guess his peers would be the likes of Steinbeck, Hemingway, Salinger?

Robin S. said...Yep, ril they were his contemporaries. But some of us are, um, wordier than others. He writes this story as a grand old man of the region would have told it, in my opinion. Not this is 'the Southern way'. About a decade later, give a few years, two excellent Nobels by Southerners came out - and they were short and power-packed. The Moviegoer by Walker Percy, and To Kill A Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. My guess is, you've read both?

ril said...I've read To Kill a Mockingbird. Not The Moviegoer.

freddie said...Ooh, loved To Kill a Mockingbird. I'm going to have to pick up the other one.

BuffySquirrel said...I've read Mockingbird, but not the other one. I rarely read literary fiction. I prefer a book to be about something more than just language. Mockingbird isn't like ANYTHING.

freddie said...I think TKAM had to be shorter because it was told through a child's point of view. I think literary fiction now is . . . less wordy and the pace tends to be faster.

Robin S. said...I think in literary fiction, in general, there's more of an active engagement from the beginning of the novel, now, because there has to be, unless you're already a name, in my opinion.

ril said...Good Literary Fiction is always about more than just language; bad Literary Fiction is about less.

BuffySquirrel said...In which case I've rarely seen any good literary fiction on any shelf.

Meri said...I thought Warren was waaay too wordy. Maybe his fame had gone to his head by this point. Good author gone bad Syndrome?

Robin S. said...I don't think true lit fic is about only the language. I think those novels are written by poseurs - and I think they'll be quickly forgotten.

BuffySquirrel said...Yeah, there seem to be a hell of a lot of those poseurs, though.

Robin S. said...I agree, Buff. Word orgasms for the author fond of the sound of himself, but no meaning. I'm hoping their day is close to being over. It turned me away from reading for a while.

Phoenix said...I think a lot of contemporary literary fiction tries too hard to be something more than what it is. Few lit fic authors, IMO, today write to tell the story. They write to become required reading in Fine Arts studies. I find it hard to connect with most of today's published lit fic for that reason.

freddie said...So we've got a couple of readers who were wondering why the hell Max Perkins wasn't available to edit this novel. ; )

Evil Editor said...There is a "genre" known as southern literature. Faulkner, Steinbeck, Warren are nothing like Hemingway and Salinger, who sound almost contemporary by comparison.

Robin S. said...Yeah, EE, you're right. (I know you already know that.) Short or long, brief or wordy, it's distinct in outlook on life, and in its language usage.

BuffySquirrel said...Well, I got 37 pages in. When I tried to read Don Quixote, I think I managed two pages.

Evil Editor said...You missed the part where the windmills come to life and attack.

BuffySquirrel said...Damnit!

ril said...Don Quixote was written a little earlier, of course. I read it in High School and seem to remember enjoying it. I read the English translation, though.

Meri said...I've read a bit a Quix and I do tend to grant Cervantes and the translator a break, since it was written 500 years ago. I seriously found the pacing of this work to be profoundly retarded, etc. I almost get the feeling that the whole story was too purposely contrived. The plot line (and the art work on my "Book Club" edition) were meant to sound titillating and salacious to bored 50's housewives, in a way.

Robin S. said...I got into the novel once I got past the first pages. But I do wonder if it were shortened, for effect and for removal of the occasionally extraneous, if I would have liked it better. I'm not sure. But there was one part that I really couldn't believe Warren glossed over. He didn't describe the attack on Beaumont, and his head being cut off, until it was a kind of an 'oh yeah, by the way' bit. That honestly disappointed me.

Phoenix said...Do we disdain wordy, language-rich novels these days because as a culture we have far more distractions and less time to read than our parents did, so we automatically resent anything that puts greater demands on our time? Or is that art form truly a lesser art? This goes back to my earlier question: Is it the audience dictating what art is?

ril said...I think the audience dictates what sells.

Robin S. said...I take your point, phoenix, and I see ril's as well - and I think they're married.

Robin S. said...EE, do you think of lit fic as a genre? I've heard that more and more. I always thought of literature, both contemporary and 'classic', as simply those novels that had something to say about the human condition - that said it more honestly, and more thoughtfully, than the other fiction surrounding them.

Phoenix said...Awwk! Now THAT's a scary definition. I'm so sorry, Robin, but that reeks of the basest snobbery.

Robin S. said...Hey phoenix - What I mean is -pick up the 'airport novel du jour' and read it, and the next hour after you finish it, it was like the words never entered your mind. Versus - reading a wonderful novel with resonant prose and a resonant theme and story.

Phoenix said...Rob, you're still holding a whole genre up as "the best" art form. Remember, Shakespeare was a hack in his time... Kind of like George Lucas today. If you love something enough, you can spin the criticism to make it seem "worthy" of praise. Just look at the genre fiction being taught in universities today - everything from Star Trek to Jackie Collins.

BuffySquirrel said...Plenty of genre work has a lot to say about the human condition, but could never get classed as lit fic. I think it depends on the wordy, language-rich novel. I don't automatically find them unreadable. Erm. Honest! *waves "War and Peace" in evidence.

Robin S. said...Hey Buff-I see what you mean, and I disagree with whomever decided to subtract genre fiction from literary fiction. For instance, I consider Poe literary, and Ellmore Leonard. And Dennis Lehane.

Meri said...I actually read an ARC of one Lehane's early works about 10 yrs ago. I don't think I've read (I've seen Mystic River and the other one) him since, but I agree he has a way with descriptions and a world view that make him literary, Robin. I do think I should probably give WPW (maybe King's Men?) another go, in all fairness. But I'm pretty sure he's just not my type of author. Trying to view this as "current fiction" with an arty twist back in the 50's makes me wonder how many authors have joined that list in the last 20 years? Stryon? Updyke? Larry McMurtry?

Robin S. said...Seriously, phoenix - I just love well-written fiction - and for me, for it to be well-written, it has to speak to more than just the immediate story and circumstance. I'm actually not a fan of literary fiction being considered its own genre, and I'm wondering if that sectioning off is why we get such schlock posing as lit fic now. I really do.

Meri said...Agree with the comments on lit fict having that "lasting impression" type of linger in the reader's mind. I think it's okay for a person to be snobby and elitist about 1 or 2 things. Seems like most people are extremely prideful and protective about way more than 1 or 2 things, but I do think it should be limited!!! So my point of snobbery is "good writing". I chose it long ago and I'm stickin with it. And I admit that I aspire to the role (My personal pinnacle of a perfect life) with great earnest, yet I grow old . . . I could never, ever be snobby or elitist about shoes, though. But I understand that many successful women harbor that secret belief (i.e. Angels wear Prada). Imelda Marcos comes to mind. Hope I'm not boxing myself into some elitist hell, here, guys and gals. . .

ril said...I think Literary Fiction as a classification does cover a multitude of sins.

Robin S. said...ril, What sins do you see?

BuffySquirrel said...Adultery. It's practically de rigueur in lit fic!

ril said...Well, what I mean by that is that the term often seems to be a catch-all for "non-genre" fiction. The stuff within that classification covers a very broad range, just as Science Fiction covers a very broad range from the greats like Asimov and Clark to Star Trek novelisations and beyond... It's not all the same.

Evil Editor said...We would rather read a well-drawn comic book than gaze at the Mona Lisa.

ril said...Not me. That chick is hot. Sorry. Was that a bit mysogonistic?

BuffySquirrel said...I've seen the Mona Lisa. It's not that great.

BuffySquirrel said...ril, dear, here's your bait back.

freddie said...Well, no. Reading the comic book might actually take more time. I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive, but it's perceived that way. I'm just saying that I think the market does have an effect on lit fic, when so much of it gets released to resounding silence from the masses. Maybe for good reason, maybe not.

Phoenix said...I've hung comic book art that spoke to MY perception of the human condition more profoundly than the Mona Lisa ever did. Yet, I can see the beauty in the Mona, too.

Evil Editor said...People flock to see the Mona Lisa because it was painted by a master. Not because they actually appreciate the artist's talent. Likewise, when reading great fiction, you may not appreciate it but you can still get the feeling you're in the hands of someone who knows what he/she is doing, as compared to when you're reading crap that will be forgotten tomorrow.

ril said...True. I've read stuff where I've thought "I wish I could write as well as her/him", yet still I never finished the book.

sylvia said...That's interesting. I don't think this has ever happened to me. But it could be that when I don't finish a book, I transfer the blame by blaming the author's writing.

BuffySquirrel said...Yes, you know when you're reading a book by someone who knows what they're doing. And then there's Penn Warren.

Evil Editor said...Hey, you read one chapter.

BuffySquirrel said...C'mon, EE--agents and editors read one page! if that!

Robin S. said...Buffy, I don't think this is Warren's best work. Read "All the King's Men." It's also based on fact - a corrupt and dangerous asshole in the deep South, different era. Amazing novel. Truly.

freddie said...I think buffy's right about genre fiction, though. It's so often relegated to an ugly step-child status. And much of it is, in fact, literary. Just read Gene Wolfe.

Evil Editor said...There are, of course, those who find Gene Wolfe impenetrable.

freddie said... Sure. But no more so than a lot of lit fic. I think a lot of it boils down to taste.

Robin S. said...I don't know the name Gene Wolfe.

freddie said...Gene Wolfe is a writer of fantasy fiction. I don't think he's hugely known outside of the fantasy genre . . . which is a shame.

Robin S. said...freddie, What novel of his should I read?

ril said...Gene Wolfe helped to make Pringles what they are today. Seriously.

Evil Editor said...If you read one Wolfe, you'll have to read at least three. It's that trilogy thing.

freddie said...Hmmm . . .He's done a few series, and I've only read those. I haven't read his stand-alone novels yet. You could start with Sword & Citadel, but it's the start of a series (four novels). I haven't read it, but Peace is one of his more major stand-alone novels and is highly regarded. But since I haven't read it yet, I can't recommend it. Besides, you need to catch up on your Neil Gaiman. ; )

Robin S. said...Got a Wolfe or a Gaiman coming up on the booklist, EE?

BuffySquirrel said...Never mind Gene Wolfe. Read UK Le Guin's "The Dispossessed".

freddie said...You know, I haven't read UK Le Guin yet. I've got Left Hand of Darkness sitting in my bedroom, waiting to be read. I do want to read Dispossessed.

BuffySquirrel said...I don't think LHoD is as good as it's cracked up to be. But an interesting read. If you like the world, it's explored again in her short story "Coming of Age in Karhide".

Evil Editor said...You can't abandon Sean Stewart for these others. Once you find someone you like, stick around awhile.

freddie said...Hey, I'm not asking anyone to abandon Sean Stewart! Maybe just fool around a little with someone else . . .; )

Robin S. said...Sean Stewart. Absolutely. I should have mentioned him as one of the genre-busters, actually. I still think of him as a Book Chat find, and somehow, they are separated in my mind. I consider Perfect Circle one of the best novels I have ever read. I bought copies for both daughters. Meri- I agree. Lehane is excellent. His worldview speaks volumes about the human condition, yet he never proselytizes.

Robin S. said...EE, be honest, please. If you'd read that first page, and it came to you from an unknown author...

Evil Editor said...I'd have read on. It's a great hook.

BuffySquirrel said...Eh, it's not a bad first para.

Robin S. said...I like the way the first para ends with..

To whom was he writing...The answer is easy. He was writing to us.

sylvia said...Still catching up on comments but I want to say: I haven't finished the book - I'm hoping that you guys will inspire me to push on. A primary issue for me is that I just do not like Jeremiah at all.

Evil Editor said...Think of him as your brother. Then maybe you'll have some compassion for him.

Phoenix said...Not in this day and age. I'd be slapping some sense into that boy were he my brother...I can understand and appreciate the context of the time in which it was written and the time it was written about. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm with buffy there. I think it all goes back to what we learn in Lit class - looking at a work from the context of when it was created and comparing to what the world view is now.

sylvia said...Robin wrote: Did the beginning bore you? Because I thought it was the kind of novel that grows on a person, after they've given it some time. I found the beginning slow (and yes, I think today the story would simply start later) but I didn't mind it so much. It felt like a prologue and I felt that the action was going to pick up - which it did. But I found myself very apathetic about it. I read on because I wanted to get further into the book on principle, not because I cared.

Meri wrote: I never bonded with Jerry or Rach, so by page 200 whatever, when they married I really still didn't care about either of them.

sylvia said...I will give the book another go. I hadn't read the background information and so I didn't know the facts that this was based on - to be honest, that's already made it more interesting to me.

Evil Editor said...Part of the reason no one feels any sympathy for Jeremiah is because so few read the whole book. Members of an opposing political party tricked him into believing Fort claimed Jerry's wife had sex with a slave. Given the times, it's like a politician today claiming his opponent's wife had sex with a horse. Except then you couldn't go on national TV and deny it.

BuffySquirrel said...Fair enough, EE, but to read that far, many of us needed to sympathise with him to some extent already.

sylvia said...But that wouldn't make the opponent a sympathetic character for me. It might make me have more tolerance for his actions, especially if they are extreme. But I disliked Jeremiah before anything exciting happened to him, not as a result of his later actions.

Robin S. said...About Jeremiah - he does get more interesting and sympathetic, and pitiful really, the longer you read and see the box he was put in, long before he died.


Robin S. said...ril, I think of non-genre fiction as still being genre-fied- women's fiction, commercial fiction, upmarket book club fiction, literary fiction. I don't agree with that - (not that anyone gives a crap about my disagreeing).

freddie said...I give a crap. I agree with you. The whole 'women's fiction' thing makes me want to tear my hair out.

sylvia said...Agreed!

Robin S. said...Women's fiction - the only thing I can think is that this is now a genre because more women are buying books and reading - so they're being written for. Is that it?

BuffySquirrel said...Women have been the major consumers of fiction for longer than there's been a "women's fiction" genre. So frankly I don't understand why it exists at all.

freddie said...Exactly. And I think the public's mindset is that 'women's fiction' is somehow inferior to 'real' fiction. Like it's the Lifetime movie equivalent to The Dark Knight, or whatever. Don't know if that makes sense.

ril said...It's all about marketing, isn't it? Aren't the classifications in the bookshop just to help people find what they want, and what they want is generally books a lot like the ones they've already read...?

Blogger BuffySquirrel said...That can't be it. Most of what I read is crap, and I desperately want non-crap! lol

ril said...Then you want aisle 3 where the non-crap section is...

Robin S. said...Yeah, ril, I agree about the marketing. I like to go in a bookstore and take my time and wander. I don't like being walked to an area. I liked it better when fiction was just fiction - yes- the genres were separated (I've always loved a good mystery, so i appreciated that) but I see what you mean.

BuffySquirrel said...Is that kinda like aisle 13, the one you can never find?

ril said...No, it's there. It just seems to get longer the more you walk...

sylvia said...I think there's some weird stuff happening with genres - chick lit, women's fiction, very adult young adult books. It's a form of marketing obviously. "Here, go to this section of the bookstore and buy me! You are my target audience!" Which I don't usually mind but it seems terribly divisive and making it more difficult for people to explore and push their limits. As an example, I'd not read very much young adult fiction before - I just assumed it would be simplistic and moralistic. I've been catching up recently and really enjoying some great books - which I would never have found in the book store. I've found them by word of mouth and it helps a lot that I have a teen son that loves to read - but if I didn't, I'd be missing out. If those books were all in "fiction", I would have found them.

Robin S. said...I agree, Sylvia. Just call it fiction and let ME look through and decide what to buy. Bookstores are screwing up - because they are run like, forgive me, businesses, rather than as a haven for lovers of the written word. I used to spend a lot more time in them than I do now. I miss that.

Meri said...I worked in bookstores for 10 years (albeit awhile ago) and overall I think I've done a pretty good job of avoiding "crap" and maybe some luck. I also followed a "line of reason" in making my selections, over the years. I had a go with Bruce Chatwin and I thought he had a lovely writing style and much of it was actually non-fiction! I found him in the travel section and was very sad when he died.

freddie said...He did The Songlines, didn't he? That was a lovely read.

Meri said...Yes, "Songlines". I found "In Patagonia" first and enjoyed that, back when I actually thought I might get to the bottom of S. America in my travels. Haven't yet.

Evil Editor said...Okay, enough moaning and whining and pawing, I'm off on a dog walk.

BuffySquirrel said...We weren't pawing!

ril said...Uh, yeah, sorry about that pawing.

Robin S. said...EE, enjoy being walked by the weres! Hope you don't mind if we stay just a bit longer?

BuffySquirrel said...Now I have to decide which of 89 books to read next.

freddie said...Were we whining, EE? Sorry.

ril said...I don't think I've ever ready anything that I thought was just totally crap. I've read stuff I didn't think was great...

freddie said...I usually find something of merit in everything I read. Which is probably why I'll never be a professional editor in trade publishing. No cracks allowed on that, anyone. ; )
Actually, I should say almost anything I read. I tried The Bridges of Madison County and that truly was crap. I'm going to have to try In Patagonia.

sylvia said...Eat, Love, Pray is the most recent book that I can think of that I thought was utter crap. Sorry to anyone who liked it but I really wanted to just throw it across the room. I read a lot more of it than I should of as it was a present from my mother - who later admitted she hadn't actually read it.

ril said...If I were a smartass I'd say you should've tried Eat Pray Love instead...

Robin S. said...ril, you're a stinker in the best way.
Robin S. said...Sometimes where I am dictates what I read - ex - airplane reading, if I didn't bring a book - I buy something at the airport to keep my brain soppy, if nothing else, during the flight. But I have to tell you, especially since i've started writing again, I do think some of this stuff is crap.

sylvia said...I didn't really just write "should of", did I? Oh my god.

BuffySquirrel said...Hmm. The random number generator thinks I should read "Sharpe's Tiger".

BuffySquirrel said...I hated "Homicide My Own". It's probably better if you buy into that reincarnation stuff.

ril said...I struggled through "Homicide My Own", but I thought it got better as it went on. Or I got desensitised, not sure...

Robin S. said...buff, I could've easily been able to say I liked Homicide My Own. I don't believe in reincarnation, but I thought it was handled well in the novel. The thing that tripped me up was the colloquialisms - they drove me nuts. Normally, they don't, but in this one, they did.

Robin S. said...Buff, do you really have 89 books waiting in the wings to read? you've got me beat! Sylvia- that was a hoot. Meri- you've got me intersted in that guy.

BuffySquirrel said...Those are just the ones I have listed on GoodReads :). See, I had a birthday not long ago, and there are a lot of charity shops around here, and....oh heck, I'm Sqrl and I'm a Book Addict!

Robin S. said...Buff- thank god you're an addict! The best kind, in my opinion.

Whirlochre said...Just logged on to pick up my email only to find you guys live. So — a quick hi & bye.

sylvia said...Someone recommended Caine's Mutiny to me - was it someone here by any chance? I bought it used from Amazon despite having books on my shelf yet to read but now I have NO IDEA who recommended it or what the context was or anything. I am enjoying it though - I think I'll finish it before going after Jeremiah again.

BuffySquirrel said...Jeremiah has to go back to the library. I've already renewed him at least twice.

Robin S. said...Know what scares me? I think you can write a good novel, maybe a wonderful novel, and it won't go anywhere. At all.

freddie said...Yep, that's the risk.

sylvia said...You could say that about some of Vonnegut's stuff.

Meri said...Robin, I share your fear!!!

Robin S. said...I think because I'm about to send my baby into the world, I'm getting the jitters. Anyone else?

sylvia said...My draft of a novel just had it's first serious proof read. She said it was a skeleton and I needed to flesh it out. So I'm trying to push aside other projects so I can really throw myself at this. It's scary.

sylvia said...ARGH. Its. See what happens if you guys have me on a chat before I've been to the pub? My grammar goes all to hell. :P

BuffySquirrel said...eh, if it's a skeleton, it's just right for Halloween, no?

Robin S. said...It is scary. I think when a person writes a novel, you are working to speak to people, and how that writing is received is gonna matter to you, even if you have to put on a mask and play pretend.

Meri said...Agree! It is like exposing one's neck to a vampire.

The John Darnton/Black and White and Dead All Over Book Chat

Robin S. said...Did you guys enjoy the book?

Evil Editor said...It is what I expect from a mystery. A murder, a lot of suspects. I liked the short chapters and the humor. I had trouble keeping up with the characters even while reading it.

Dave F. said...Lots of characters and I read a review on Conde Nast's Portfolio and they started to name real people who matched up with the descriptions.

Robin S. said...I did enjoy the plotline, but keeping the characters separated was an issue for me. That, and their names. They took away from the humanity of it, for me, at times. Like the name Peregrin. Made me think of a falcon, and maybe it was supposed to. But I'd rather she have been named something ubiquitous. Pam, maybe. What did you all think about the names themselves? Peregrin. Ratnoff.

Evil Editor said...Pomegranate, Eagleheart, Whibbleby...

sylvia said...Re: Peregrin, good point. I think that is probably part of why it wasn't so horrible. We'd already seen that she'd walked into the killer's clutches.

Dave F. said...The names were chosen to be caricatures.

Evil Editor said...Too many ridiculous names. Maybe he thought that was a good way to help us remember them.

Robin said...It may have been part of the larger picture that I missed - but it took away from my ability to enter the story.

sylvia said...The names were very odd. After the initial introductions, though, I simply ignored them. It bothered me more that I had to flip back a few times for a refresher on who was who.

Dave F. said...I like the short chapters, too. But I will bet you hated this statement: In describing [one victim's] postmortem state, Jude eschewed the word statue and tried sculpture. That was knocked down as "too artsy," so he tried effigy; when that was eliminated because it sounded "political," he reached for relic, which was nixed because it made [the victim] sound like a tourist spot; finally he come up with phantasmagoric likeness, which was blocked as being "too poetic."

Evil Editor said...I didn't like that it was determined to be an inside job. It would have been easier to keep track of the suspects if a couple were outsiders. Ratnoff's wife, for instance, or the Australian publisher.

Dave F. said...And there is much to old paper print newsrooms that lend it a certain charm.

Robin S. said...Kinda cool that this was written by a journalist/newspaperman. That the characters match up with actual characters is a nice touch.

Evil Editor said...Yes it had it's amusements. And the guy knows the NY Times inside out, so I assume it's got a good basis in reality.

sylvia said...I was impressed at how deftly Darnton brought us into the newspaper world - I felt like I'd learned something about what it would be like to work there. I don't know how realistic it was but it felt it.

Dave F. said...I remember my Aunt who worked in the credit office of Horne's Department Store using tubes like they described.

Evil Editor said...They use those tubes it some bank drive through windows.

Robin S. said...Yeah- they've been around for a while, those tubes.

Evil Editor said...I could have done without the scene in the satellite Globe building with all the vehicles moving around. Is that for real?

Dave F. said...I didn't see a purpose in that scene. And I do not know if it is true.

Robin S. said...I liked the quotations the author inserted here and there, Steinbeck, etc. I liked the 'end of an era' feel as well...

sylvia said...It was ok. I liked the "view" into the newspaper and the conflict between new journalism and old hands. But I found the actual plot to be fairly contrived. I expect better from a thriller, tbh. The murders were too extravagant to be taken seriously. I felt uncomfortable with corpses that seemed like they were set up for a giggle.

Evil Editor said...I'm not sure they were giggle-worthy. The murders were no more elaborately staged than those in Silence of the Lambs. Were they?

sylvia said...That's a good comparison. To me: Silence of the Lambs was horrifying. The first death was bizarre and somewhat horrific but after that, no. I admit I didn't giggle but, somehow they did seem more silly than horrible?

Robin S. said...I think I know what Sylvia means. There was quite a lot to like, and enjoy, but there was a subtracted feeling, somehow - as though I was being held at arm's length.

Evil Editor said...Is Thriller what they call mysteries in Europe, Sylvia? Here thrillers are Jason Bourne, mysteries are Hercule Poirot.

sylvia said...Er, it's probably just me misusing the term thriller. People are being murdered, he's in the centre of things and probably a target, so the adrenaline levels are high. Would you just call it a mystery? That makes me think of Agatha Christie.

Dave F. said...I thought the big exciting emotional climax was him leaving his girlfriend. The murders are a little bizarre like "Dr Phibes" - contraptions one doesn't expect to be murder weapons. And with the SAW movies popular, Darnton climbed on the bandwagon.

sylvia said...But yeah, Dave, except that it didn't instill me with horror that the contraptions had been misused.

Robin S. said...I didn't mind the strangeness of the murders themselves - set up to make fools of the victims. But I minded the on-and-on-ness of some of the surrounding prose - even though, as I said, there was quite a lot to like.

Dave F. said...No these aren't truly elaborate murders. I'll venture that Robin or Sylvia never watched SAW... But they might have read "Pit and the Pendulum"

Robin S. said...Good Lord, no - no Saw stuff for me. I have more than one fault, of course, but one of my big ones is having an inordinate amount of sympathy/empathy for fictional characters on screen. My family makes fun of me - but I can't watch that kind of horror.

sylvia said...I'm looking up SAW - is there any written version by any chance?

Dave F. said...Drowning in your food is an old, old joke. I thought that was contrived. Besides, the chocolate was hot and that wouldn't do nice things to a person.

Evil Editor said...The killer was trying make a point. Or convince the cops that he was trying to make a point.

Dave F. said...Yes, but the usual treatment is to analyze the "point" of the murders - usually by the police. This treatment was told from an outsiders POV - Jude Hurley knows so little at some times and yet, the killer considers him the greatest threat.

Robin S. said...Dave, That may have been because he sat next to Jude, and knew Jude was quick - that he had a good chance of putting things together.

Evil Editor said...Also, Jude was the only reporter assigned to the case.

Robin S. said...Ha ha EE. But a dumbass could have been assigned to the case.

Robin S. said...I kind of liked the touch on the first murder with the spike, and the note...Nice. Who?

sylvia said...Yes, I loved the note on the first killing.

Dave F. said...Do you think he wrote "lush" prose as a dense jungle in homage to past styles of writing?

Robin S. said...I don't know that I'd call the prose lush. I think it was more of a newspaper article, an in-depth piece, with fictional elements.

sylvia said...I didn't dislike it. It was a fast read - the kind of thing I like to take on a flight where I don't want to have to concentrate much. Very accessible.

Evil Editor said...I never quite understood the murder on the binding machine. It wasn't described as clearly as I'd have liked.

Dave said...One bumbling action I did find bumbling was that Ratnoff was left out in public for so long. Coroners and ME's would have had someone fired over that. Joshua Perper who was Cyril Wecht's successor as Allegheny County coroner, fired two employees for less.

Evil Editor said...They couldn't move him. They needed a crane.

sylvia said...I guess I just felt slightly disappointed in the end. The first murder was great (I can't believe I just said that sentence) horrifying and personal and yes, the note, wow. Then they got really bizarre (and yeah, maybe I just pictured the binding machine one badly) and the horror aspect filtered. At the end, I felt he wrapped it up cleanly and I didn't feel cheated at all. But nor did I have a feeling of "oh, how could I have not realised that!"

Evil Editor said...I like the Nero Wolfe mysteries because of the humor, but that humor comes in Nero's eccentricities and Archie's comments about Nero's eccentricities. Character based. Here the characters weren't so funny--maybe Pomegranate--the humor came more from the narrator and the comparison with actual newspaper business: NY Times/Rupert Murdoch.

Robin S. said...EE, Maybe that's why I felt held at arm's length - I hadn't thought about the reason why - but maybe the humor not being character-based is indicative of the reason why.

Robin S. said...I read the end first, as I do. That made me wish Darnton hadn't used the killer's first and last name all the way through - that he'd made the guy feel more personal to Jude, as a next-door neighbor of sorts.

sylvia said...I'm surprised there aren't more people here though - it's one of the most accessible books that we've read.

Dave F. said...Can anyone tell me what page the discussion of Fred Bradshaw's story occurs on. I couldn't find it today. I remember it because I was giggling out loud and a friend asked me about what and it was too awful to admit to laughing.

sylvia said...Remind me what the Bradshaw conversation was?

Dave F. said...There's several pertinent mentions. #1 on the top of page 28 - "A lede so egregious that it sent his career into a tailspin"... Not about Bradshaw
#2 on page 64 where Jude discusses lede's "That unfortunate lede on the 3-alarm fire"
#3 on On page 68 is "Deaf Mute Saves Three on Staten Island"

There's a mention in the cooking about Outsalot having someone disciplined over using her article on "how to make perfect bacon" and then the one I cannot find is actual discussion of the article where all the wrong words are used to describe death by fire.

Dave F. said...From Conde Nast: no one receives rougher treatment than Allan M. Siegal, the former Times standards editor who retired in 2006. Siegal was known for enforcing the paper's usage standards with daily memos called "greenies," written in green ink

sylvia said...Hmm, tbh I'm less impressed if it was a finely veiled parody of an office that the author didn't enjoy. The Devil Wears Prada comes to mind.

Dave F. said...I liked "The Devil Wears Prada" deliciously nasty

Robin S. said...I was surprised as hell to see the Updike zap, by the way.

sylvia said...Updike zap: remind me? This will teach me to finish books before the deadline. :( The Devil Wears Prada annoyed me mainly - She had such a grudge and I wanted a less biased view (which I admit would have been a different book).

Robin S. said...Sylvia- the Updike thing is on page 222. By the way- who's the book reviewer based on?

sylvia said...I really didn't feel the Bradshaw instances (such a bad lede, his career is over) pointed at the solution to the mystery. I accepted it as motivation in the end, but I don't see those references as hints so much as justification.

Robin S. said...I'll go look for it, sylvia - but it's something nasty about the angsty year he'd taken to produce a load of (purported ) crap... To be honest, that pissed me off. I mean, hell, the guy wrote the Rabbit Engstrom trilogy.

Dave F. said...I don't know who Vera Slaminsky - Book Critic is written about. She's described as moving like an eel to power. I thought that was a "slimy" description and an unkind thought.

Evil Editor said...There was another mention of an eel. Someone was described as being as graceful as an eel. I didn't know if that meant graceful or not graceful. There were a lot of strange analogies. I don't know if they were meant to be funny or if they were just bad analogies.

BuffySquirrel said...Eels are graceful--in the water. On land, not so much.

sylvia said...This is the first book chat ever where my view of the book/author hasn't improved as a result.

Dave F. said...Bollingsworth gets the chance to slam Vera Slaminsky. She says the critic was out watching the movie version of the "Bonfire of the Vanities" which is in every way inferior to the novel by Wolfe.

Robin S. said...Dave, I'm good with unkind thoughts, as long as they ring true. The eel thing reminds me - there were a lot of comparisons that missed a bit of the mark- that I noticed as I read, rather than having the language blend into my reading.

Dave F. said...I read the "Neanderthal Conspiracy" and it was OK. It contained one of my pet peeves - telepathy - which is always a scientific cop out for a real plot gimmick.

Evil Editor said...Why was Fred promoted?

Dave F. said...Why was Fred promoted? Help me out, EE. I don't remember him being promoted other than sideways to keep him away from any good news story.

sylvia said...Funny, I didn't actually notice the analogy but now that I'm leafing back through it looking for references, I can see it.

Robin S. said...I didn't think Fred was promoted?

Dave F. said...Charles Stengler who they all thought was the illegitimate heir was promoted to editor. Grabble was too, at the end.

Evil Editor said...I thought I remembered a scene where Jude comes in and Fred is cleaning out his desk and says now that he's been promoted he wants to move into Ratnoff's office.

Blogger Robin S. said...I liked the book, Sylvia- but I liked it only on one level, and I'd have preferred more. Maybe I expected more than I should have - I don't have the tongue-in-cheek insider's knowledge, for example, and I'm not gonna go digging for it. I think it would have made a difference. It was a good read, but confusing - not plotwise...

sylvia said...Stengler was promoted because he was mistakenly believed to be the heir. Grabble was promoted after the mystery was solved and deemed the best choice by the old hands, which was interesting. I presume, now that I have more background, that that was aimed at praising someone specific.

Dave F. said...I enjoyed this as "not too serious" and "summer beach reading"...

Robin S. said...but confusing in that - on one hand, there are the one-liners and the quotes - and then on the other hand - there's the plot itself, and the poking around personalities. I couldn't ground myself, I guess, and decide whether I was reading something entirely ironic, or a novel meant to say more.

sylvia said...I agree Robin - I found the book easily enjoyable, cotton candy. I felt a bit disappointed when it was done having snarfled it down pretty quickly.

Robin S. said...yep, Sylvia, I'm with you. It was fine, but had a lot more in the 'untapped potential' department.

Dave F. said...Well, an online reviewer compared this to MAx Barry's "Company" and that other satire in 2nd person "And then we came to the end" I read Company and laughed my butt off. But I couldn't stand the second person.

Robin S. said...Is there a way some of the characters could've been subtracted out?

Green Eggs and Spam said...Was this a gory book, or more like a who done it? Sorry I didn't read it, but I'm trying to piece the plot together based on your comments. Perhaps a trip to Wiki...

Dave F. said...Green Eggs -- the story is set in a newspaper office (think New York Times) and binding machines were once used to bind newspapers in bundles for the newsboys to hawk on the streets. As for death by chocolate, my dear boy (or girl), that 's the only way to go...

Robin S. said...I don't know,you all. That being bound alive was a freakout.

sylvia said...Buffy - if you email me your postal address, I'll send you my copy.

BuffySquirrel said...Thanks, Syl! Much appreciated :).

Dave F. said...This wasn't an Edward Gorey book. It's three murders had aspects of gory deaths but not so much as to put the gentle of mind and heart off. No buckets of blood, not even teacups.

sylvia said...Yeah, exactly. Ludicrous deaths. Not horrific.

Green Eggs and Spam said...Oh! This is the one about the murder of the editor! The only review I read said the characters were stereotypical...

sylvia said...I couldn't really envision the bound-alive thing I guess. And then the tabloids got silly with it. I'd have ignored that but then death by chocolate ...well. :P

Dave F. said...A few years back, the Food Critic for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette took to taking bribes and meals for good reviews. One of the restaurateurs got so mad that he arraigned an FBI investigation. The food critic blew his brains out with a gun in despair. It was quite the scandal.

Dave F. said...None of the "tabloids" fare very well in the story. They're creating more and more exceedingly bizarre stories as time go on.

Robin S. said...Tabloids. Don't even get me started.

Evil Editor said...It's really a novel as a means of getting across the fact that newspapers are becoming relics of a bygone era..

Robin S. said...Yeah, I see the societal aspect of it. The end of an era - at least the widespread newspaper reading public - the ones who don't believe everything they read by some whose-its.

Dave F. said...By the way, Syl...I think Peregrin was dead by the time he put her in the machine. There's a note about the cloth coming up to her face smelling of something...

Kiersten said...Hi. Sorry I've been slacking lately--is it odd that I feel guilty, given that I don't actually know any of you?

Evil Editor said...December's book: The Higher Power of Lucky (Middle-grade), Susan Patron
Winner of the Newbery Medal, 2007
January's book is paperback.
February's may not be. Which is why I put it on my Christmas list. Let Evil Jr. buy it for me.

Robin S. said...Well, obviously Darnton can write. He won the Pulitzer for some of his work as a journalist. But again, this just felt 'dulled around the edges' to me - well-written, but missing the pieces that would've allowed me in. Maybe that was part of the intention?

Kiersten said...I'll be in for December, I promise.

BuffySquirrel said...I got "Lush Life" (February's book) from the library--in fact I've already read it. The library is also supposed to be getting in "The Midnight Road" (January's book), altho' I've heard nothing yet about it arriving. "The Higher Power of Lucky" is proving more elusive.

Brenda Bradshaw said... My book just arrived. Literally tonight. Just unwrapped it. I ordered it a month ago, and just now received it. I'll try to go and comment after I read it -- I still have to do that with BET ME too. Ugh.

sylvia said...Hi Brenda ! You and Buffy can compare notes next month :)

The Susan Patron/The Higher Power of Lucky Book Chat

Chris Eldin said...Okay, may I ask the first question? Would you have read this book as a child?

BuffySquirrel said...As a child I read every book I could get my paws on. If it had come within reach, I'd have read it.

BBJD said...I think so. The Main Character has intelligence and wit. To be honest, I don't believe I would have liked it as well as I do reading it now.

Evil Editor said...I'd have read it, though I'd have found it more boring as a child.

Kiersten said...Sure, but it would have annoyed me. The whole "She put it in a place other than her brain to ponder later" thing when anything was related to romance, etc, would have really ticked me off. It felt like she was talking down to that age group. As a ten-year-old I was VERY aware of how boys felt about me and how that made me feel.

Chris Eldin said...Good point, Kiersten! That's one of the cardinal sins of children's writing--to talk down to them.

Dave F. said...I would have read it. I think the fuss about "scrotum" is silly.

Editorial Anonymous said... Is a book which contains the word scrotum appropriate for 9-12 year olds? Just who are the uptight hysterics who think it's not? Why when everyone involved in a discussion is up on his/her high horse does nobody notice until the field is thoroughly trampled into mud?

BBJD said...The word (scrotum) didn't bother me. I remember reading books with worse.

Kiersten said...I didn't think the whole scrotum thing was necessary, but I don't see what the big deal is, either.

BuffySquirrel said...Come to that, every word in the book is unnecessary. The whole book is unnecessary. Reason not the need, for Nature needs not what thou gorgeous wearst, which scarcely keeps you warm. All. Unnecessary.

Kiersten said...Buffy, you're strange. I like you.

Evil Editor said...What book is necessary? Besides Why You Don't Get Published, of course.

Dave F. said...It's kind of shallow to hit that word and go into spasms of fright and indignation, isn’t it? But then, Lucky doesn't know what the word means and adults worry that having to discuss sex with their own children might make them silly and squeamish. At the end, the explanation is so plain that it turns the fuss into a "tiny moth"... Irony is hell, isn't it?

BuffySquirrel said...I thought the scrotum thing illustrated one of the difficulties facing children: obscure adult conversations and finding out what those mysterious words mean. It made more sense to me than a lot of the rest of the book. It also should have reassured parents that if you just answer the question, the child will be satisfied. Not corrupted. Just happy with an answer.

Dave F. said...I get questions from children about my physical appearance for several reasons and most times, the adults apologize because they consider the questions impolite. Children want a simple, straightforward answer. Children aren't equipped to discuss philosophy. People forget that.

Editorial Anonymous said..."obscure adult conversations and finding out what those mysterious words mean" Absolutely. Those conversations were the most fascinating.

BBJD said...I agree with Buffy. When my son asks questions of this nature I just tell him. Usually, that's the end of it.

Dave F. said...I think that the word "Scrotum" hides the real struggle that Lucky is going through and that is: Why did her mother die and leave her? Will Bridgett leave me, too? Why does Daddy stay away? Those are terrifying questions for children.

Chris Eldin said...Exactly!! Which is why I thought it could've been written as a book for older kids....with more character development.

peggy said...hell, I never knew what a scrotum was until I was 15..nothing but 8 girls in my house, so probably wouldn't have read it, unless one of my friends had it.

Evil Editor said...It was a dog's scrotum. They keep 'em clean. It's not like it was a disgusting guy's scrotum.

Robin S. said...It's not the word scrotum that makes me think what I think. I think the word is funny, just like the body part itself.

Chris Eldin said...I thought much of the prose was lovely and written for children, but ultimately it was a story that may be enjoyed by grown-ups more than children. I tried several times to get my boys to read it, but they won't. Do you think this book has more appeal to girls than boys?

peggy said...My sons would have read it, they learned the proper words for body parts. But it does seem like grownups like it more.

BBJD said...The scrotum thing was a small part (no pun intended). What intrigued me was how Lucky was struggling with the fact she actually had come to love her guardian, but feared if she admitted it her guardian would leave, too.

Chris Eldin said...I felt the pacing was too slow for boys to get into, no matter that the MC had a hobby of collecting insects, and the snake in the dryer, etc. There really wasn't enough 'action' for a boy these days. What do you all think?

Robin S. said...Again, I loved the pacing and the flow of the narrative - but I don't think my girls would have read this - not as their choice from a bunch of books on the table. But I do think they'd love it now (they are 16 and 20). I loved it.

BuffySquirrel said...I think boys wouldn't read it because it has a girl on the cover. Poor little conformists.

Chris Eldin said...What if it had a scrotum on the cover?

Evil Editor said...Dog or human?

BuffySquirrel said...If it had a scrotum on the cover, nobody would get to read it.

BBJD said...I think boys would read it - if they are a reader. Readers have their favorites, but they generally read across subjects and genres.

Editorial Anonymous said...I think the pacing was too slow for a lot of kids to get into.

Chris Eldin said...Do you think the discussions of "Higher Power" are too esoteric for kids?

Editorial Anonymous said...I think any conversation about protecting children from ideas is too obscure for children.

Kiersten said...The Higher Power discussions were kind of simplistic, I thought. And didn't end up going anywhere. I enjoyed the book and thought it was well-written, but she made Lucky too old and too young all at the same time.

BuffySquirrel said...Eh, I still don't understand the whole "Higher Power" thing.

Chris Eldin said...Buffy, the Higher Power of minions is EE. heheheeh

Robin S. said...I think this book was beautifully written, but I think it reads as though it was written about children, for adults. A memoir of a painful time.

Dave F. said...It's a sweet story. From an adult point-of-view, predictable, but from a child's point of view full of odd characters and excitement. "I hurt my foot" and "I got a bug in my ear" are terrifying adventures for young kids. But 5-year-old Miles has the good line -- "that means she not staying away from me on purpose." Bright little moocher that boy.

Kiersten said...So here is the problem: do you write middle-grade that adults love and think is worthwhile, and that kids find boring, or do you write middle-grade that kids eat up and adults think is worthless? Or do you give up on writing middle-grade entirely? I opted for that one.

BuffySquirrel said...Write for kids. Write for kids! Adults who've forgotten what being a kid was like aren't worth writing for anyway!

Robin S. said...I agree, buff. Write for kids if you're writing for kids. Maybe the author thinks she did do that? Newbery sure does.

Editorial Anonymous said...It's a good book, but would it have won the Newbery if Susan Patron wasn't a very well-liked librarian? Haven't the Newbery choices been inexplicable enough times to completely kill everyone's curiosity about what goes on in the committee's chambers?

Robin S. said...Why can't Newbery read for 'most distinguished fiction that children actually read"? Not trying to be funny. I'd really like to know.

peggy said...I don't know, writing MG, finding the right humor is important. something a grown up will laugh at, because of a memory and something a kid will laugh at because they did it. We are all just kids at heart, reminders in books can be fun.

Kiersten said...Then there are books like The Phantom Tollbooth, which I loved as a child. I reread it as an adult and couldn't believe how great it was. There was no way I got all of the cleverness as a child. That's the kind of book I'd like to write. If I weren't lazy. And if I were far cleverer. I think I would have read this as a child, but it wouldn't have been among my favorites.

Chris Eldin said...The kid tying the knots..I almost felt like the author copied that from Maniac Magee (a character in the book is famous for tying knots). It was done well once, I didn't like seeing it done again.

Kiersten said... Maniac McGee--there's a book that deals with these same issues, in harder ways even, but that I loved as a child. Which, once again, I'm not bashing HPoL. I really did like it.

BuffySquirrel said...My favourite book around the age this is aimed at was Tarzan of the Apes. Now that's slow. :) (reread it recently; oh dear it's BAD oh dear oh dear)

Chris Eldin said...I felt that the relationship between Lucky and Bridgette could've been developed more. I don't know. The story is beautiful as is, but I almost wish it were longer, and geared for older kids.

BuffySquirrel said...That would involve talking to children. And everybody knows children don't know nuffin'.

Robin S. said... I thought that, too, Chris, and then I thought that really, the relationship from Lucky's point of view was undeveloped in the way children's worldviews are undeveloped - whole in important ways, but missing pieces of the adult puzzle (lucky them - pun intended).

Editorial Anonymous said...Why can't Newbery read for 'most distinguished fiction that children actually read"? Well, then you get into the swampy area of which children. Some children will read and enjoy HPoL

Kiersten said...It felt very episodic and vaguely underdeveloped. I agree with you, Chris.
Here's Lincoln's defining thing. Okay, here's Miles' defining thing. Okay, here's Short Sammy's defining thing. Okay, here's...

BuffySquirrel said... I thought the book lost its way about halfway through. As if the author saw the word count looming.

Dave F. said... How does Lucky handle the loss by death? That's the question. How do children (not just Lucky, but five year old Miles) handle separations, divorces, remarriages? Why do we have rituals for burial? What purpose does the ritual serve? The memorial service: Gee, I thought it was cruel at that age when we had to sing hymns while the coffin was lowered into the ground and people wept. Insisting that a ten year old throw the ashes of her mother to the wind is hard. How does the kid understand that? And the father, where is he? Absent from the funeral. How awful.

Kiersten said... No, he was there, she didn't know he was though, thought he was a funeral guy.

BBJD said... If her father was the mortician, why didn't he even talk to her when he was there? If hecared enough to arrange for a guardian, why avoid her?

BuffySquirrel said... The kid can't understand that. It's a great example of how kids get involved in things they don't understand by adults who've forgotten that kids don't understand.

Evil Editor said...I thought there was too much teaching. Snakes can be good, parsley is the key to French cooking.... seems like every topic that came up we got a lesson instead of just plot.

Chris Eldin said...EE, Yes! I agree! That was off-putting for me. Like a grown-up trying (and failing) to get inside a child's world. It truly felt like an adult short story more than it felt like a children's book.

Robin S. said... I didn't think of these things as lessons, EE. I thought of them as Lucky's life lessons, inserted into the narrative, as they are part of her ongoing inner voice.

BuffySquirrel said... I thought the snake was too undramatic. Seemed like Lucky fixed the problem too easily.

BBJD said... I looked up past Newberry winners. I'd only read one on the entire list.

Chris Eldin said... And I also think that Newberry books should be as appealing to boys as to girls. I know that's tough to do, but for an honor so prestigious, I can think of quite a few books that achieve this.

Evil Editor said... No way would the dress no have been mentioned by Brigitte. Surely it was ruined.

Dave F. said... When a kid goes missing like Lucky did, the person searching for the kid no longer cares about the "red dress."

Evil Editor said... There wasn't that much concern, they all "knew" where she was.

Sarah Laurenson said... I thought the book was well written, but slow and I don't think I would have read it as a child. I was into the Hardy Boys which were really not well written. As for the scrotum, I applaud using the real name for body parts.

Chris Eldin said... The father's absence from the girl's life wasn't fully explained, and wasn't questioned enough by the MC. I thought with the loss of the mother, the child would want to cling to the father, or at least want answers as to where he is.

Robin S. said... I agree, buff! And I think that not understanding and rehashing things through a child's eyes made for wonderful reading for me as an adult.

Robin S. said... Chris, I don't think Lucky really ever knew her father more than vaguely- knowing he was out there. Her worldview was, he was in absentia. Her family after her mother died and befor Brigitte seemed to be the people in Hard Pan.

Dave F. said... And when Litle Miles said that his mother was OK that his Mom was in prison because she wasn't staying away from him because he did something. There was a higher authority involved. That's very, very bright and understanding in the simple way kids think.

Sarah Laurenson said... So that brings me back to the scrotum issue. Why do parents shy from telling kids the truth? It's so much easier and leads to a lot fewer misunderstandings.

Dave F. said... I remember begging a ten-year-old to some to a funeral because I knew he had to say goodbye. It's hard to explain that to a child and harder to tell him that you need him with you at the time. Kids don't understand the rituals of grief and loss.

BuffySquirrel said... I imagine the father was there to say goodbye to the woman he was once married to. I saw appointing a guardian as his way of making sure he didn't have to be bothered about Lucky at all.

BBJD said... People avoid the truth because it embarrasses them. Claiming they are only considering someone else is an excuse.

Kiersten said... Would anyone give this book as a gift to a child?

Sarah Laurenson said... I don't know. I thought the kids were a bit shallow with all that was going on. Either that or a bit removed emotionally, though her fear about B leaving was good.

BuffySquirrel said... Eh, parents think if they tell kids the truth, their kids will no longer be innocent. They've got that "innocent" all confused with that there "ignorant" word, I guess.

Dave F. said... I'm giving it as a gift and I'm already in hot water for it. The girl is 7 y/o and my mother wants me to wait three years.

Chris Eldin said... Wow! Kiersten, my response to your question is going to be stronger than I would've thought, but I absolutely loathe to pick books out for children. I really do. I always give gift cards.

Sarah Laurenson said... Not on the top of my list, K.

Robin S. said... Bevie, I agree. And Miss K, depends on the kid - but I wouldn't give it to a kid whose parents I didn't know pretty well, because as Bevie points out - the adults may have honesty issues all their own.

Sarah Laurenson said... My Mom was great about answering honestly. I bless her for it today.

Evil Editor said... But would your mom have wanted you getting your info from fiction books or from her?

Robin S. said... Whose mom? My mom only read Ladies Home Journal and cookbooks.

Chris Eldin said... My kids have medical dictionaries in their rooms. I noticed my 8 year old looking up 'puberty' a couple of months ago.

BuffySquirrel said... My mother suggested the dictionary.

BBJD said... We keep the dictionary handy when we watch DVD movies. Every time anyone says anything any of us doesn't understand, or has a difficult time explaining, we grab the dictionary.

BuffySquirrel said... Apparently my husband's mother made sure her children had access to a set of junior encyclopedias that answered their questions. I imagine modern jr encyclopedias are like the "Bodyworks" CD...everything remotely related to genitalia is mysteriously missing!

Chris Eldin said... LOL Buffy! Or, if you have boys, smiley faces are crayoned onto the boobs.

Chris Eldin said... Dave, I let my kids read just about anything they want. Except for Series of Unfortunate Events, which I think is way too dark and full of despair for kids.

BuffySquirrel said... I don't know any kids to give it to. Although I suppose I could offer it to a school library.

Kiersten said... Oh, especially as the books progressed with SOE, Chris. The first few were fun, but they got so, so dark.

Robin S. said... My mom told me all the Latin/medical names for everything, but, as she was frigid as a Frigidaire, I didn't exactly take that to be the unvarnished truth.

Sarah Laurenson said... SoUE - I just didn't like it, flat out. But some kids really got into it. I have to have some smidgen of hope in books I read.

Kiersten said... I thought SoUE was hilarious. But I don't think I'll give it to my daughter until she's twelve or so. I just didn't think this book was much "fun", which would be why I wouldn't give it as a gift.

BBJD said... My son has read the entire Series of Unfortunate Events and finds it very funny. But then he inherited my sense of humor.

Sarah Laurenson said... I thought Lucky's decision about the ashes was handled a bit odd, too. You guys probably discussed this back on comment 80 or so. Seemed like the usual author problem of how to neatly wrap up the book and be done with it. I can relate.

Kiersten said... Yeah, Sarah--suddenly she's willing to let go? I thought it was actually a clever way of getting out of trouble for running away. They can't get mad at you for that, now, can they?

Sarah Laurenson said... That's probably the true reason, K. Seems more logical.

Robin S. said... I agree, Miss K. A clever ruse. I'd have done that. I admired her for her quick thinking.

Evil Editor said... Where was Miles's grandmother when the town got to the caves? Was she among them?

Chris Eldin said... Ultimately, do you guys think this book deserved an award? The most prestigious award for American Children's Lit?

Kiersten said... I don't, Chris.

BuffySquirrel said... I've no idea about the award...what other books were in contention?

Dave F. said... Lucky's "higher power" is her decision to help Miles, who she recognizes as younger and helpless, and take him to the cave to take care of. I'm not sure that counts as a revelatory experience.

BBJD said... I didn't like Lucky's final solution. It felt more like she did what she did because she thought it was the 'grown up' thing to do. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But it bothered me that Lincoln was in town and knew the adults were coming, but he still arrived before the adults. How did he manage that?

Robin S. said... Chris, I don't know all the awards out there for children's lit, but I do think this was a gorgeously told story, with meaning on many levels. I agree it should have received special notice, but if the Newbery is for lit children actually read (and my girls were very bright and big readers - President's Scholars and gifted program kids - and they wouldn't have picked it) - I don't know.

peggy said... About innocent..that is all based on the writers age, in the 50's everykid made up words for body parts and it was just handed down from one generation to the next. My sons never asked me what their body parts were called. You gonna tell a 3 year old it's a scrotum or most men will say, its your balls son. It's generational. My sons are grown now and they tell me they always knew what parts really were, they have encyclopedias. LOL. Didn't your family have made up words for body parts when you were kids? Thats part of the fun of childhood.

Robin S. said... Ha! He might, Bevie! And Peggy, I know what ya mean, but weirdly, our family thought casual words or body parts were nasty. go figure.

BBJD said... In our family, it wasn't the body parts which were nasty. It was the body functions and byproducts. We got slapped for saying poo. I guess that explains why we never read A.A.Milne.

BuffySquirrel said... Made-up names for body parts? Not that I remember!

Evil Editor said... I still call my you-know a piddle wee, especially when I'm hanging with the tough guys at the pool hall.

BuffySquirrel said... It's harder to pretend boys' parts don't exist!

Chris Eldin said... Okay, that's pretty funny, EE!

Robin S. said... A PIDDLE WEE? You are kidding, right? I always heard penis from Latin-word Mom, but when she said it, she said it almost under her breath, as penises basically gave her the creeps.

Kiersten said... EE, does that discussion happen frequently while in the pool hall?

peggy said... No? See, it must be generational thing or maybe family. Or perhaps I am/was out of touch. I remember going to the first health classes, back then girls in one boys in another and we were taught the proper names. Everyone would get all weird about it LOL. But that's all right.

BBJD said... EE, you don't happen to have a cousin named "SpongeBob" by chance?

Dave F. said... There are still euphemisms for those body parts. Kathy Griffen (or Griffeths) just got nailed for crudely saying "dicks" on TV...

BuffySquirrel said... So she can't say "dick" but she can be nailed...?

Kiersten said... I just had a lovely thought imagining that the author finds this book chat and sits down to read it, only to find how the discussion degenerates. I hope she laughs.

Robin S. said... Miss K, I think the topical degeneration and the word scrotum in her novel are inextricably linked, and I bet with the sense of wry humor she displayed in her prose - she'd get an understanding kick out of the discussion. Seriously. I know I would.

Chris Eldin said... EE, just curious since this isn't your genre--how did you pick HPOL for the book chat?

Evil Editor said... I chose it because I heard it was about scrotal sacs.

Chris Eldin said... LOL EE! "Sin Sacs" Get it right!

Evil Editor said...Also, I try to choose books that award committees or reviewers liked, figuring that improves the chances it's not a complete bomb.

BuffySquirrel said...EE, how's that working out so far? Cos a lot of the books have been duds, imo.

Evil Editor said... Possibly because you prefer one genre, and we read a variety?

BuffySquirrel said... I certainly used to restrict my reading to one genre, but of late that has not been as true. One of my favourite books of those I read in 2008 was Sarah Waters' "Affinity". If you'd asked me if I'd love a book centring around mediumship, I'd've said "Of course not!". So I don't think it's so much my closed mind as not-very-good books :).

BBJD said... Buffy, I think you just have extremely high standards.

Kiersten said... It's not you, it's them, right Buffy?

Robin S. said... Anyway, I'm glad I bought the book. Yet another book I wouldn't have read were it not for these chats. My 3 favorites so far have been Perfect Circle (by a landslide), followed by this one, followed by the second one.

Evil Editor said... I liked To Say Nothing of the Dog, Perfect Circle... Romance lovers may have been inclined toward Bet Me.

Robin S. said... I wasn't inclined toward Bet Me.

BuffySquirrel said... I loved "To Say Nothing of the Dog". I bought my dad a copy! Now that's book love, as he's worse than me :D.

Kiersten said... Wait, EE, I thought you LOVED Twilight? Weren't you waiting in line for the premiere wearing your EDWARD FOREVER tee-shirt?

BuffySquirrel said... I wanted to give Twilight negative stars....

Robin S. said... I did enjoy To Say Nothing...buff, but I didn't love it. For that matter, I didn't love the Warren novel I hosted. I liked it. I admired it. But I didn't love it. Still, it's good to broaden out, I think.

The Tom Piccirilli/The Midnight Road Book Chat

Brenda Bradshaw said... One thing I love about this book is the odd out-of-place shock value moments. The first one I came across was, "It would've been a hell of a nice place if not for the guy in the cage in the middle of the room." After that one, I read it mostly to read more of those kind of comments, and it kept its promise and delivered throughout the book.

Evil Editor said... That is a good line.

Dave F. said... I grew tired of the oddities cropping up everywhere.

Dave F. said... I was thrilled that the opening was his death but then as we got into the chapter, it got stranger and stranger

dana p said... I thought it got off to a great start. Knowing that the narrator was going to die, and come back to life -- presumably not as a zombie -- was what made me want to read the book... not that there's anything wrong with zombies...

Dave F. said... With the opening couple hundred words, I kinda had the hope that he would come back as a ghost and do the novel. I didn't expect him to visit the house of Bizarro and descend into the pit.

dana p said... Dave, I had high hopes for the House of Bizarro. But I was cruelly disappointed...

Evil Editor said... Back cover: In a genre where twisted souls and violence are the norm, Piccirilli's work stands out for how it blends these elements with a literate sensibility. Is this accurate, thriller readers?

Dave F. said... Accurate enough for back cover copy. But By the end, I felt cheated.

dana p said... Was it a thriller? More of a hybrid horror-thriller-something...

Brenda Bradshaw said... Yes, I think it's a thriller. It's along the lines of Koontz, which interestingly enough, this book is dedicated to him.

Evil Editor said... I chose the book because it won an award as best paperback original thriller of the year, and it opened and closed like a thriller. The middle wasn't thrill a minute, but maybe that's good. Thrill a minute doesn't often happen in real life.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Knowing what happens with Nuddin in the end, it makes me wonder at the motives of Mrs. Shepard at the beginning. She had the "family obligation" to keep Nuddin, but at the same time, knew it was best to keep him contained. What Flynn (and we) considered "abuse" -- in hindsight, it wasn't abuse. Maybe not the best way to handle someone like Nuddin, but her INTENT was well.

"You don't understand. We're protecting him."

"From what?"

"From the world. From temptation."

That's our first hint. HE doesn't need the protection. The WORLD does. It's a temptation to Nuddin. And it's so great she'll risk killing Flynn AND shooting at him even though he has Kelly with him in the car.

Does that make her as bad a person as we thought she was?

dana p said... I thought it made Mrs. Shephard a very STUPID person. Come on, lady, just spit it out. Don't hint. Of course, if she hadn't beaten around the bush, there wouldn't have been a book.

Brenda Bradshaw said... That scene also has a line I love:

Her mother holding a gun on a stranger couldn't rate all that high on the Holy Shit Barmeter if your own mentally handicapped uncle lived in a cage in your basement. Was that just another sign of practicality?" HA!

Dave F. said... She's completely nuts. Something unsaid made the father dial the CYS

Evil Editor said... I guess if you read a lot of mysteries, you like for the killer to be the obvious person occasionally and the least obvious occasionally, and someone in between most of the time. To me this was least obvious. I didn't mind Nuddin being one of the bad guys, but the ambulance driver?

Brenda Bradshaw said... That's because we can all relate to ambulance drivers. We've all experienced them, or know we may some day, and so they're REAL and what Peterson did as an EMT could be real. Nuddin... he's more of the fantasy.

Evil Editor said... It was more the feeling of coincidence that bothered me. The guy in the cage at the house collaborates with the guy who saves the narrator's life later that night.

Dave F. said... What's his name the hero, is so dysfunctional, I was surprised the police didn't start trailing him. Everywhere he goes dead bodies turn up... where were the police?

Brenda Bradshaw said... Flynn, and yes, they did tail him. They'd pulled off the tail four days before Florence was murdered in the theater.

Evil Editor said... It's not his fault some woman's head explodes while he's talking to her.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Laughs! EE! That's one of my favorite things of this entire book. The description of her head blowing apart like a flower blooming, having her guts in his mouth, getting CUTS from flying pieces of skull. The novel is worth reading just for that part there.

Evil Editor said... I wasn't sure what had happened. I thought maybe he imagined it till the next chapter started.

dana p said... The more I read, the less interesting & sympathetic I found the narrator. By the end, I neither respected him nor cared what happened to him. Kind of not the effect the author was looking for, I suspect.

Dave F. said... That's my reaction too, Dana. He was so damaged he wasn't sympathetic. I also didn't believe that the CYS official would house two damaged children at her house without psychological evaluation. She's taking care of damaged kids and she brings in more?

dana p said... And he was damaged because... his brother died painlessly in a car accident that was his own stupid fault. And it damaged the narrator soooooo badly. I don't know. I wanted to tell him to get over himself.

Brenda Bradshaw said...What did you think of Zero, the dog? And how Flynn saw tons of dead people, like his brother, Danny, and Patricia (Danny's dead girlfriend). I never really figured out WHY. It almost felt like a forced part of the novel without any real meaning behind it.

Dave F. said... He needed a stable friend to show off the normal world.
BTW - I thought the dog was an interesting device.

dana p said... About the dog -- it made me think of the dead guy in that Todd mystery series (sorry, can't remember the name). The one with the WWI veteran who hallucinates the soldier he executed. The dog device felt like it was "borrowed" directly from there.

Evil Editor said... As with movie thrillers, there are always things you find unbelievable, but did it keep you turning the pages? I read it a lot faster than I expected to.

Dave F. said... I did read this fast but the last few pages were agony. I lost any interest in Flynn. Maybe that because he never did seem to deal with his brother's death.

Brenda Bradshaw said... What role do the damn movies play? I got tired of hearing "film noir". What point was it? Was it just to give us insight into his character? The ONLY thing I can find is him selling his posters to fix his dead brother's car. The memory of his brother, the power that stupid car represents, is greater to him than his own interest/hobby.

Evil Editor said... Perhaps the author is into film noir. The About the Author (page 319) confirms he's into noir novels and cult films. As does the front of his web page. As a writer, you save a lot of research if you make your character be into the same stuff you're into. Write what you know. Flynn was an obsessive kind of guy. Movies and the car and his brother. Maybe you have to be obsessive to be good at a CPS job.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Then why did it take him 20 years to hunt down Emma? Was that like... Obsession through Denial?

Evil Editor said... He was a kid when he knew Emma. Not that he ever knew her.

dana p said... Emma! Poor, poor Emma. How are things going to go for HER, now that this crazy-a$$ guy has fixated on her & idealized her into something magical. Ugh.

Dave F. said... Brenda, I think he retreated into his own world after his brother's death. He just found it easier to have a huge pity party in his mind and never come to terms with the death. So he never spoke to anyone but he created the fantasy of getting his brother back by living with death and possibly dying.

dana p said... The more I learned about the narrator, the more self-pitying, and eventually pitiful, he seemed. Brenda, I thought the author had real talent. He made me laugh/snort out loud a few times too. I ran across a review of another of the author's books recently. (I'm not going to ready anything more of his.) It had 2 brothers with issues, and ANOTHER special-sacred car. The book, that is, not the review.

Brenda Bradshaw said... I don't really read thrillers, so I have no idea if this is a "good" one or not, in general. I MAY read something else by Piccirilli, but if it starts in with film noir and muscle cars and their "power", I'd pitch it against the wall.

Brenda Bradshaw said... I wish there'd been more interaction between Flynn and the shrink Moody (anyone else find that a hilarious name for a psychiatrist?!). It was sooooooo funny after the shrink's big long declaration and then he asked Flynn, "So tell me about your mother." Flynn's reply was too damn funny for words: Flynn hopped up, said, "Oh for the holy love of sweet baby Jesus Christ in a shit-strewn manger," and walked out.

dana p said... Brenda, I agree, that was one of the book's great moments.

Evil Editor said... In fact, that's one of the great lines/scenes in literary history.

Dave F. said... I agree with EE - Moody is one of the great scenes with that huge, wordy build up and then "About your mom?"

Brenda Bradshaw said...Also, the reporter, Jesse Gray, there was like this attempt of a relationship but it never went anywhere.

Evil Editor said...They did hit the sheets. That's not exactly nowhere.

Robin S. said... I agree - hitting the sheets is definitely somewhere. Or it can be, anyway.

Brenda Bradshaw said...I guess the romance writer in me wanted more out of that, and to see another side of Flynn past the muscle car and the movies but it never came about, so she ended up just being another reporter without a real purpose in the novel. If you take her out of any scene, the scene still stands. That's not saying a lot about her character. Brenda Bradshaw said... OH! Another thing I really, really disliked about this novel: Trevor. He's the kid who helps around Sierra's house and befriends Nuddin. His stupid "confession" that he wasn't abused; he just didn't want to MOW THE LAWN. GAH! No words. Just gutteral sounds of frustration inserted here. That was horribly anti-climatic to a stupid extreme.

dana p said... Brenda, the Trevor reveal was just one amongst a vast sea of non-credibilities by the time it came up.

Dave F. said... I thought the Grey newspaper character lost big when she kept pumping him for news stories and trying to sleep with him at the same time. Gee, I don't often call women bad names but she deserves one.

dana p said... I usually loathe it when the sexy young woman *cannot resist* getting in bed with the frumpy, unappealing middle-aged-narrator-stand-in-for-the-author. Kudos to this author for making it credible to me -- by creating the woman as such a messed-up, unappetizing, fundamentally boring piece of work herself.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Hi Robin! What's your take on MIDNIGHT ROAD?

Robin S. said... I'm on the fence about this one....precisely because the depression had no end game, as far as I was concerned. Just noir for noir's sake doesn't do it for me. Was anyone else depressed by this book, or did you all already say that?

Brenda Bradshaw said... It was depressing, Robin. I mean, I get the entire "Kill your darlings" as a writer. Throw more and more and more crap at them. Kill those they love, put them through hell, see how much they can take, etc. BUT! The purpose of that is to get a greater sense of RIGHTNESS by the end of the book, that they suffered for a reason, and found redemption/happiness/reward at the end. I didn't feel that at the end of this one.

Evil Editor said... When your main character's job is investigating child abuse, there're bound to be some depressing pages.

Robin S. said... Well, yeah, EE. Child abuse as a topic is horrific. But I felt like the darkness had no let up. Not that I expected Little Mary Sunshine to show up.

Dave F. said... I did like the noir tone but I felt cheated about the end. I like "redemption" and "resurrection" as an ending. Plus, everyone I know who's suffered a loss has come to terms with it, myself included.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Dave: I agree. I mean, Flynn is like the Epitome' of Denial.

Evil Editor said... I certainly hope no one comes to terms with it when they lose me.

dana p said... EE, I for one will be inconsolable. (Guess I'll just have to go first.)

Robin S. said... I would never get over it, so don't go anywhere, please.

Brenda Bradshaw said...And why did Sierra have to be a gunshot-to-the-face survivor for her role in this book? Her wigs and plastic surgery, the comment Flynn accidentally makes about "a gunshot to the face" and she's like "been there, done that"... AWKWARD MOMENT! I never understood what purpose having her all physically messed up meant for her character and the novel in general. If you take away her past, it doesn't affect the story aside from the car/gun being one of her ex's, but even so, it would have worked without her violent history being attached to it.

Dave F. said... I Agree Brenda, The story would have worked without her violent history being attached to it. Maybe she was too interesting a character? I know it's good to have interesting characters but should they all be so striking? That's a question for the author when creating the book.

Evil Editor said... It doesn't have to be important to the story when you give a character's background. Although wasn't it the metal plates in her skull that helped her survive the beating long enough to talk to Flynn?

Brenda Bradshaw said... EE: Yeah, something about the plates, I do remember but was it NECESSARY? We went through several parts where he'd talk about her plastic surgery, how it affected her smile/sneer, how her left eye hung lower, showing she was tired, etc. I think we could have had a "she had a plate in her head" to save her in that scene without all the other gore that made me and my incredible ability at visualization cringe whenever she came on scene. Seemed unnecessary to the story for me. Unless it's because he's always so vitally surrounded by extreme disaster -- even his boss's face.

Evil Editor said... Well, you can't just say she had a plate in her head after she survives. That's Deus ex machina. We have to know all about it in advance.

dana p said...
Somehow, killing Sierra in that grotesque way felt to me like cheating. Over-the-top. Like the author was going for a cheap shock, at the reader's expense.

Dave F. said... Sierra's death fit the rest of the story. The gunshot head, the chases in the snow, the car crashes... All the work of a madman. I think the author fell in writer's love with Sierra. I have characters like that. They are so easy to write and they are so vivid, too. I'm not saying they do any good to the story but that's a writer's love affair. I didn't mind Sierra's physical injury stuff.

dana p said... I guess I didn't buy the madman stuff. Maybe that's why it didn't work for me. The author just did not convince me with the Nuddin characterization.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Dana: I didn't see Sierra's death as over the top. I found her living description way over the top though. Her death almost had to be violent like that because of WHO killed her. It showed his strength to be able to do that much damage to someone like Sierra, who'd already seen/experienced so much. I found her described death more credible than her life.

Dave F. said...Am I the only one who felt unprepared for Nuddin being the villain? I did feel unprepared.

Brenda Bradshaw said... I wasn't surprised it was Nuddin. I mean, we'd been warned that they were protecting him from temptation. And, usually something like that comes full circle. It started with Nuddin so it ended up Nuddin. What I wasn't expecting with Nuddin, though, was the creepy intelligence underneath it all, but even THAT shouldn't have surprised me because it's stated he's Autistic, and we all know what brainiacs Austistic children are at the core of the shell they live in.

dana p said... I could see the Nuddin reveal coming. And -- I did not buy it. There were a bunch of credibility issues in this story, & that was probably the biggest for me.

Evil Editor said... I wasn't prepared for either villain, but the guy who saved Flynn's life? That's the one that got me. He happened to be driving the ambulance. He had nothing to do with the actual case.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Peterson did more than drive the ambulance. He was an actual EMT who saved Flynn. He had a huge God complex, which isn't surprising. We're used to seeing that in doctors, but who ever really thinks of the EMTs like that? I kind of liked that twist, but where does Peterson team up with Nuddin? At the initial scene when Flynn is dead for 30 minutes? That part never really registere with me, the two of them teaming up.

dana p said... I swear I've seen that EMT god-complex device used in fiction before. I have the power of life & death yadda yadda... Does that ring any bells for anyone else?

Evil Editor said... Evil Editor said... Possibly everything's been used in fiction by now. I guess Nuddin and Peterson were both there that night. Though I don't see them bonding under even good circumstances.

Dave F. said... At that level of manipulation, you don't need to bond, just connect and find the right words to get the person to listen. It's manipulative and creepy. LIke interrogations by the police. At the point Peterson admits his involvement is when we, as readers, should start to question who he had contact with. But maybe the author should hint at that, too. Perhaps, that's a missing line or a word in the book we should not reproduce.

Evil Editor said... True, if Peterson had an accomplice, it had to be someone who was there the night Flynn drowned.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Well, Nuddin and Peterson obviously met that first night at the wreck when Flynn "died". Nuddin had been in the car, helped to save Kelly by getting the window down, etc., so he'd still be there when the EMTs/cops got there and worked on Flynn. But that's so... "in passing". At what point did Nuddin see this supposed weakness/secret in Peterson to make him want to team up to torture Flynn? That's never explained and I really had assumptions.

Dave F. said... AS much as I analyze things, when I am reading or watching a movie, I tend to wait for the author to tell the story. I do not analyze for hidden motives and stuff like "Why is that mother crazy?" ... That's why I missed Nuddin. You had to say to yourself, why is that woman nuts. Could it be her autistic, naked idiot son/brother/incestuous sibling is really a brilliant savant and has driven her mad?
Sorry, not in my idea of a book to enjoy.

Robin S. said... I have to tell you, I skipped parts of this novel, which for a readholic like me, is saying something. Still, I felt huge empathy for the victims, and their hopelessness. It had many positives - for my taste, I think it could've been stronger with an occasional release from the underworld feeling I had when I read it, but the descriptions were quite evocative.


Dave F. said... It's a well written book. It's vivid and has good thrills. And I did finish it. But I just didn't connect with the main character. I liked many of the lesser characters, though. It was very modern and gritty - like an urban noir.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Okay, some more of my favorite lines from MIDNIGHT ROAD (yes, I marked them):

Sometimes you couldn't keep your dead dogs quiet.

Here it was, a retarded guy with drool on his chin telling Flynn he was stupid. (LOVE that one)

You could die a lot of dopey ways but being stabbed in a cage while wrestling a naked autistic idiot-savent split personality was way the hell up there. (This sums up the novel for me -- find the biggest impossible-sounding over-the-top thing and write a novel about it because you can, even if the novel doesn't really hold any sense of anything else.

And my personal favorite:
All families have secrets.
Sometimes it's you.

Brenda Bradshaw said... I'm glad I read this novel (twice even) and those kind of lines like I indicated above were all I really needed to flip the pages. I love his lines like those -- but then again, I'm kind of sick that way. It takes a lot to get shock-value over on me, but Piccirilli definitely did it.

Robin S. said... Brenda, That last favorite you listed was my favorite as well.

Brenda Bradshaw said... Robin: me too! It's definitely a statement which makes you sit back and say, "Whoaaaaaaaa... wait... ohhhhhhh crap..."

Maybe that's just me who had that reaction... I'll shut up now...

Dave F. said... I will give this as a gift to one of my friends and they will appreciate it. And I mean that. No irony, no satire, no silliness.

dana p said... Some good stuff: He does a good job of establishing mood. He knows how to get things off to a whiz-bang start.

Evil Editor said... I like the third one, Brenda. Glad you copied them, it reminds me that there was a lot of humor from the narrator.

Dave F. said... Brenda's right about his writing. It is really exciting and precise. It takes time and effort to craft sentences that stunning. That's hard work and Piccirilli does a good job of it.

BuffySquirrel said... *waves in passing*

Robin S. said... Yeah, Brenda, I liked it because said a lot without a bunch of explanatory fluff attached (and I do get the joke about how a woman who writes in long, long sentences would think that).

Brenda Bradshaw said... Thanks to everyone who participated and read this novel with me and taking time to come and post (waves to Buffy!). I've enjoyed the discussion and breaking the novel apart to poke around its bloody guts (and this one had a lot of bloody guts to explore!)

dana p said... Thanks, EE & Brenda.

freddie said... Damn. Just missed you guys. For some reason, no matter how well-written, thrillers always seem cliched to me.

The Richard Price/Lush Life Book Chat

Evil Editor said...People have a lot more to say when the book sucks, so I expect this chat to be very short. In short, I loved it.

Robin S. said...I love the title of this one. so far, it wins Favorite Title.

sylvia said...I really enjoyed it.

Evil Editor said...I was slightly bothered at first till I got used to the street language and to the author's tendency to use ing words instead of ed words, like he was giving stage directions. But once I was into it I didn't want it to end.

Robin S. said...When was the last time you thought that during a Book Chat book?

Evil Editor said...I've seldom felt that in any book. When it's time for the ending, I don't mind it ending. But an investigation can go on as long as it has to.

sylvia said...I very much disliked the first chapter - the use of language and the initial action. If I'd read that in a bookstore, I would have put the book down.

Evil Editor said...The first chapter meaning the prologue or chapter 1?

sylvia said...Sorry, I meant the prologue.

sylvia said...I got into it very quickly after that although I never really understood the whole Quality of Life thing nor why there were four cops in a single car.

Evil Editor said...When you're driving around NYC at 3 AM looking for criminals, you don't want to be alone, I guess.

Evil Editor said...Interesting. I really like the prologue. I got bogged down a bit in chapter 1 with the street language. Chapter 2 is about three hundred pages long, so if you get thru that, you may as well finish.

sylvia said...It might just be my lack of understanding of New York police ...But I didn't understand why they were called Quality of Life, I didn't get why there were four of them looking to pick up possible perps (or where they would put the bad guys that they caught) and I found the entire "We're your friends, now tell us where to buy a gun" spiel annoying.

Evil Editor said...Not where to buy a gun. They were saying we'll go easy on you if you tell us someone who has a gun. Maybe Quality of Life was something those four guys came up with as a joke. It was cool that they weren't just dropped after the prologue, but popped up several times and were largely responsible for getting the killer. I felt like the author really knew his stuff as far as how the police operate.

sylvia said...Just got the book out - yeah, I was firmly hooked by chapter two.

Robin S. said...For what it's worth, by the way, YouTube has several Richard Price videos. Interesting guy. I watched the Google talk he did. Anyway...

sylvia said...I loved Matty. I found it difficult at times to keep up with all the names. I flicked back at times to check but it didn't actually annoy me.

freddie said...I confess I'm showing up to yet another book chat having not read the book.

Robin S. said...That's OK, freddie. It's fun having you here!!!

sylvia said...This is a book I want to reread - maybe I'll like them better next time. I was glad that they had an integral part to play in the end, as I would have been really annoyed if they were just there for colour.

Robin S. said...Wow, Sylvia, you want to reread it? That to me is a mark of excellence.

Evil Editor said...I almost reread it right after reading it, but then I decided that would be silly.

Robin S. said...Not silly, EE. I've read the last page of a book before and was so upset it was over, I turned back and started again.

Evil Editor said...Actually, this was one of my favorite books ever. Maybe I need to read more.

sylvia said...I thought about restarting it about halfway through but I was worried I wouldn't finish in time. But there were some back references where I only half remembered what had been said initially.

sylvia said...I have a question: Did you like Eric Cash ?

Evil Editor said...I did like Eric when he was at work. I got annoyed when he decided to clam up. Of course he had reason to be angry at the cops, but still...

sylvia said...I felt sorry for Eric but I didn't like him at all until the end of the book and I kept feeling guilty, as if I should like him. I was wondering if it was just me.

Robin S. said...Why didn't you like Eric, Sylvia?

sylvia said...Eric frustrated me, he seemed so wishywashy and convinced he was destined for greater things but not getting them. Then he got treated so badly and I felt like I should care about him more but somehow he didn't. But I was on such a high by the end of the book, I liked even him :)

Robin S. said...Was Eric a typical person laid bare? By that I mean, a person who wants to be one thing, but can't quite make it, and so, is another thing, and rationalizes about it?

Evil Editor said...What about the father of the deceased? He was an interesting character.

sylvia said...My very favourite scene from a writing point of view was when the father talks about going to a Survivor's Support group thing and the DI says, yeah, for counselling and the father says no, to volunteer to help others...I was awestruck. So much crazy explained to the reader in one brief exchange. In terms of character study, the book was amazing. I mean, the plot was about a simple mugging that went wrong. The entire story was about the people who were touched by it. I can't imagine how you would write that query.

Robin S.said...And yeah, what about the query for a multi-layered novel that's about one thing, but is really about quite a bit more?

Dave F. said...That's where you begin the query - "A mugging gone bad affects four, five, six characters in different ways..."

Evil Editor said...Fortunately, when you have several novels sold and an agent, you don't need to write query letters anymore.

Robin S. said...Yeah, EE, but if this was his first...

Evil Editor said...You'd have to concentrate on Matty and his partner. A few words about Eric, nothing about Billy. There'd be little hint of the depth of the book. But all you're trying to do is intrigue the editor enough to get him to read a chapter or two, at which point he's hooked. Or an idiot.

Robin S. said...Isn't this one of those books that became a surprise bestseller?
Reviews were mixed - but on the whole, on the positive side.

Evil Editor said...Your fave Dennis Lehane wrote the top blurb on the back cover.

Robin S. said...Well, there you go, then. I freaking LOVE Dennis Lehane's writing - so if he liked the book, that's saying something.

Evil Editor said...Liked it? "Richard Price is the greatest writer of dialogue, living or dead, this country has ever produced. Lush Life is his masterwork."

Robin S. said...Whoa, EE - that's something, coming from a genius like Lehane.

Dave F. said...I thought the book was tougher to read thanks to the names and jargon. I don't like that behavior out of police.

sylvia said...I think Eric was someone who I wouldn't like as a general rule, so that came across. By the time the world went to hell (i.e. the Irish waitress dumped him and the girlfriend was leaving and the newspaper story) I at least felt he deserved to feel miserable. The police behaviour was shocking but struck me as realistic.

Evil Editor said...Yes, it seems experienced cops know what works, even though we might like to think it's like on TV.

freddie said...If it's anything like Chicago police, I'd probably find it believable.

Dave F. said...I've known bigoted policemen of both colors. The book was real about that.

sylvia said...Yolanda actually pushed boundaries more than anyone but I couldn't help but love her.

Dave F. said...I know a cop who let two guys fight in a bar while keeping them from destroying furniture and other patrons. His excuse was why take on a fresh fighter, let them beat each other into submission. It sounded reasonable until he told racist stories I would be ashamed to repeat here.

sylvia said...Matty was the star, really. I really liked the balance that his drug dealing sons gave.

sylvia said..."As intersecting narratives hurtle toward a climax that's both expected and shocking..." Was it shocking?

Evil Editor said...Shocking? I did lose confidence that it was going to end the way that I expected, so I don't think I'd have been shocked either way. On the other hand, I can't smugly say I knew for sure what would happen.

Dave F. said...If I am enjoying the character study, then I don't resent a bit of predictability. It's the detail of the characters that thrills.

Robin S. said...I missed a good one, didn't I?

sylvia said...I didn't feel it was shocking / surprising - it was all leading inexorably to the boy being caught and the father still not able to start a new life and Matty would keep on struggling. The only real unexpected bit was getting custody of the son.

Evil Editor said...For a while it was leading inexorably to the investigation failing. The top brass had no interest, the witness wouldn't talk...

sylvia said...Hmm, true but I still believed the boy would be caught - as well as the investigation failing. His confidence was such, I thought it seemed likely he'd do something stupid.

BuffySquirrel said... oh heck i forgot! Read the bloody book for nothing....

sylvia said...Buffy! What did you think of it? Quick, before he locks it :)

BuffySquirrel said...I felt it was a great book if you like that sort of thing. But truly, it was for New Yorkers, imo, which I'm not!

Evil Editor said...Though after reading the book, Buffy, you've no doubt decided you want to be a New Yorker.

BuffySquirrel said...Nah, EE, it seems to come with a whole lot of architectural baggage :D.

The Neil Gaiman/The Graveyard Book Book Chat

March 26, 2009

Dave F. said... The press for this book has been great. I think one of the audio versions is going to win an award.

Evil Editor said... Yes but did we, the experts, like it?

Dave F. said... I thought it was fun and adorable. I liked it.

Robin S. said...I gotta say that I LOVED this book. Loved it. Reread most of it as soon as I'd finished it. And I hadn't expected to do that, or even to like it much.

BuffySquirrel said... i thought it was too episodic

Dave F. said...I tried to read "The Jungle Book" and that too is episodic.

freddie said...What did you love about it, Robin?

Robin S. said... freddie, I felt drawn into the world of the graveyard to the point where it became a believable place - and the episodic nature fit the story perfectly, describing Bod growing up. There was only one line in the entire novel I disliked - the one about 'it takes a graveyard to raise a child' bit. Echoes of PC bullshit resounded in my head with that one. Other than that, I was captivated.

BuffySquirrel said...it's a take on "it takes a village to raise a child", is all i didn't find the episodic aspect worked for me; i wanted the book to be more integrated, not jumping from place to place

Evil Editor said...But most of the places the episodes are set in return later with more significance.

freddie said... There were some things that felt a little extraneous, but I think Gaiman integrated most plot elements by the end.

Robin S. said...Yeah, buff, I get the village thing. That's why I loathed the line.

Kiersten said... I liked the episodic nature. It wouldn't have worked otherwise.

Robin S. said...I agree, Kiersten. The episodic nature was beautifully unfolded.

BuffySquirrel said...i'm sure it was meant to be episodic but it doesn't really matter whether it was or not; it didn't work for me

Dave F. said... Yeah, if you read this to a child, then each chapter has to hold a child's interest. That's another reason why it seemed so episodic. It was constructed to be episodic. One chapter every two years as he grew. The part I rolled my eyes and did my "oh really" was that a toddler can escape the house, drop the diaper and walk down the street into a graveyard. He's just a touch young at that point.

freddie said... I don't know, Dave. People with toddlers report their kids wander far and wide in a matter of seconds.

Robin S. said...Dave, My less-than-two year old got out of our house when I lived in Kansas, and I saw her about the time she was climbing a small hillside into the parkland behind our property. Only took a couple of minutes. She was a wily one. It happens!

Dave F. said... OK, children just don't get that far away from me. Uncle Dave is an eagle eyed watcher.

Evil Editor said... I liked the story, but when Bod went to that underworld place with the ghouls I thought it lasted too long. We need to know about the ghoul place because later a couple people get sent there, but...

BuffySquirrel said...i did not like the D&D aspects a lot of the book i did like but i wanted more of a consistent plot

freddie said..."D&D aspects? Dungeons and dragons?

BuffySquirrel said... towards the end when they're chasing down the bad guys one of the party fails to roll the die to escape from whatever kills them

Dave F. said...There is a chapter that drags there... I liked the multiple "jacks" appearing at the end. They all seemed so helplessly stupid and cartoonish after that first chapter.

BuffySquirrel said...i loved the whole semi-being-a-ghost thing

freddie said... I didn't really get how Bod was given ghost powers.

Dave F. said...He didn't have power, the Graveyard had the power of making him less visible and the spirits within the graveyard let him work their magic.

freddie said... I was rather amused by the use of the 33rd American President of the United States as a ghoul.

Dave F. said... I made a comment months ago that if you can get a kid past the first chapter, the rest is charming and sweet and much fun to read out loud. But even Gaiman said -- I will learn not to write knives and murders in the first chapter, someday... to paraphrase.

freddie said...What did you guys think about the overall theme of the book?

Kiersten said... Curses! I just wrote an intelligent comment--really, I'm not kidding--and blogger ate it. Go figure. I loved it, thought it was charmingly written, made me want to read Jungle Book. However, the Jacks at the end felt too random, as did most of the plot lines with them (the vampire and Miss Lupescu along with a random Ifrit and Mummy hunting them in caverns, etc). It felt too disconnected from the rest of the story. Still, I thought the end dealing with Jack Frost was very clever.

Robin S. said... To be honest, this read more like an adult novel about a childhood than about a childhood for children. I think that's why it resonasted with me.

BuffySquirrel said...i liked jack frost coming back as the too-good-to-be-true guy; that was well done

Kiersten said... Oh, I totally called that, Buffy. As soon as she met him in the graveyard, I thought, it's Jack.

BuffySquirrel said...oh yeah, but kids wouldn't get it

Chris Eldin said...Hi Everyone!! Just wanted to pop in for a quickie (it's 2am here).... I loved this book! But still, like Higher Power of Lucky, I cannot see 10-12 year olds getting into it. THe language and sentence structure are difficult. I loved the ghoul section, but it was a lot longer than others and made the book feel a bit unbalanced. This was my first Gaiman book. I am keen to read more.

BuffySquirrel said... eh, well, i don't much like Gaiman anyway (which is probably heresy in SFF circles)

Kiersten said... This is the first of his I've read. Wait, no, did he write Neverwhere?

BuffySquirrel said...yeah, he wrote Neverwhere the only book of his i've really liked is Good Omens

Kiersten said...Ah, yes, he did. Nevermind. Didn't much care for Neverwhere.

freddie said...He did write Neverwhere, Kiersten.

BuffySquirrel said...which also has a child growing up and yet manages not to jump around like a deranged butterfly

Kiersten said... All butterflies are deranged; have you ever seen them fly? I agree with everyone else that the ghoul chapter ran long. Also, loved that he used -escu for Miss Lupescu's name. The -escu ending is the Romanian equivalent of -son. Except she wasn't Romanian, which did kind of annoy me...

freddie said...My favorite is still American Gods. I've read it three times.

Dave F. said...Morpheus, the god of dreams is my idol. So much of what I want to try to write sounds like Morpheus.

BuffySquirrel said...you mean it sends people to sleep, dave?

Dave F. said... Buffy, go read the compilations of Sandman and you will understand what I said about Morpheus, the god of dreams. Dreams are so dangerous.

Robin S. said...I thought Gaiman's prose was wonderful. This is only the second book we've read that I've bought for other people as gifts. That's how much I admired it.
And again,I think this reads like a book that adults 'get' more than children.

Evil Editor said...I thought the vocabulary was for older kids, but the writing style was for younger.

freddie said...The writing style was definitely for younger. Absolutely. Maybe he used a higher vocab for the adults. Or maybe it was all unconscious.

Dave F. said...That's something I noticed and forgot, EE. Gaiman does not use a children's vocabulary. He writes fairly high level.

Robin S. said...EE, you thought the writing style was for younger kids?

Evil Editor said... Yes, I thought it was pretty simplistic.

freddie said...He uses a high vocabulary, but his sentence structure isn't very complex. That's true of his novels and stories for adults, too.

Robin S. said... I think that simplicity is a good mask.

Dave F. said... oh yes, Robin, a story should cloak the most complex matters in simplicity and let the plainness of the words speak for themselves.

freddie said... So what was your favorite part of the novel? (Section or theme)

BuffySquirrel said...my favourite was definitely the ghostly powers

freddie said... I loved the witch character. Liza.

Kiersten said...Can't remember a particular favorite. I liked the dead poet still waiting for everyone to realize what they had lost when they buried his works with him ; ) Lots of clever bits.

Dave F. said...favorite - that first chapter is just so much fun, so scary, so lurid, and so inviting. I always say -- make my heart beat or my glasses fog. And I do like a good scare!

freddie said... Dave, I was just going to say the same thing, but blogger ate my comment. I loved the feeling of anticipation I got in reading the first chapter.

Dave F. said...I liked that Gaiman ended with a bit of teen angst -- boy/girl relationships. That's so a part of growing and leaving childhood.

BuffySquirrel said... i'm utterly sick of teen angst

Whirlochre said...Evening all. I'm here as a slipstream leech. I have the audio book and had intended to listen to it in order to suffuse the comment trail with reasoned analysis — but sadly, Son of Whirl nicked it in order to feed his pre-teen brain.
So if it's OK, I'll hang around to be spoiled. My angle? Currently more or less upright. To be honest, I'm coming at this from a comic book perspective. I like the fact that this guy writes comic books as well as novels.

Kiersten said...Whirl! Hey! I'm glad Son of Whirl got this. I can't wait until my kids are old enough to share fun books with.

Robin S. said...Hi Whirl, If you don't read this book, you're missing a good one.

Whirlochre said...I'm on it. Literally. Hence angle.

freddie said...Did anyone catch Gaiman on Colbert?

BuffySquirrel said...nah, that would be fangirly :D

Kiersten said... I was going to watch it but my kids descend like vultures whenever I try to play video on the laptop, and I wasn't sure it was friendly enough for them.

Whirlochre said...Haven't seen Colbert but I tuned into Gaiman's own reading. The opening with the knife. Not often writers read their own stuff. normally they pay Stephen Fry or Kerry Shale.

Kiersten said... Speaking of the little vultures, Dojo didn't take a nap today and is being a bit too much help typing these responses, so I'm off.

Evil Editor said... Did you notice how much better Kiersten's spelling was tonight?

Dojo said... Her spelling's nowhere near as good as mine. Now if only I could figure out that whole potty-training thing, I'd be out of here.

BuffySquirrel said... lol, Dojo and just put the book in a different dustjacket ;)

Dave F. said... Gaiman has a good voice and style for reading his own work. I think you are seeing his movie and comic book voice when he reads and that's why it's good. I think he hears the words in his head as he writes them. It's like a playwright.

Phoenix said...I have to admit I've listened to most of it. Perhaps since I was multitasking my way through it, I didn't find the ghoul section overly long. Or maybe it's just the difference between reading and listening. I'm loving it, but the true test, of course, is how KIDS like it. Newbery winner or not. Does anyone know how kids are truly responding? (Yes, I've been living under a rock the past 6 months. What of it?)

BuffySquirrel said...no clue about the kids no kids here

Whirlochre said...True, Phoenix — predicting kids is like watching water spurt from a fountain.

freddie said... You know, the weird thing is, I don't know how kids are responding to it. I was going to buy a copy for one of my nieces for her birthday, but my sister is a fundamentalist Christian, and I didn't think she'd react well to a book titled "The Graveyard Book" showing up at her door. I can't do that when I'm ordering from Amazon and having it shipped directly to her house. But maybe I'll do that when we're both visiting the folks next. This is a woman whose church believes the witchcraft in the Harry Potter books are real.

Robin S. said...Oh, freddie. Glad you got away from that crap.

freddie said...Yeah, but I'd like to clarify my parents never taught that crap. I mean, I know you probably weren't thinking that . . . but still.

BuffySquirrel said...lol, she ought to try casting some of the spells sometime that would disillusion her fast

freddie said... No shit, Buffy! I ought to use that the next time she starts in on that crap. Ah - thank you!!

Phoenix said...I just know that after this book I'm just going to go quietly stick my MG ms in the closet. Buffy, was it just the episodic nature you didn't like? I usually hate that, too, but here it didn't bother me. Maybe because he gave each chapter enough time to play itself out.

BuffySquirrel said...the episodic nature was a big issue for me but i also didn't like the D&D elements in the one sequence i dunno; for me the best things were the ghostly powers and jack frost's reincarnation as Harmless Friendly Man i never felt drawn into the book

Whirlochre said... What I liked about what I've heard so far — the kid walking up the hill — is that it's simply presented but offers muchness of potentially adult bizarre. I can see all sorts of mischief afoot, but I wonder — what will today's kids (goodness, I sound like an advert for detergent) make of it? Seems to point towards an horizon of grimness far, far from my own Sound of Music youth. Not that I sang along, of course. Ever.

Robin S. said...I agree, Whirl. It reads 'deceptively simple', with undercurrents. I like that. And yeah - I saw The Sound of Music, but I loved a 70's B movie wild child time.

Phoenix said...I find Robin liking it so much -- I dunno -- strange. Is it the character, the idea of the graveyard, or what that appeals most?

Evil Editor said... Robin's other favorite was also about ghosts. Coincidence?

freddie said... Yeah - this is outside your range of usual tastes, Robin. What's up with that? ; )

BuffySquirrel said... ghosts are great but they make me sad

Robin S. said...Hell, phoenix, I find Robin liking it so much, strange. I loved the concept; the world-building, and the humor (the way the gravestones are read is not only funny, it's a tale of its own about the actual lack of importance of what we choose to live by in each of our generations, or what we are taught to revere as important). I'd never have picked this book off the shelf. I hate to say it, EE, but you've been an eye opener.

freddie said... So the reason I asked about the Colbert Report (and quickly lost) was the point how Gaiman summed up the book. How would you sum it up?

Phoenix said...Yeah, on Colbert, Gaiman said all the live people were the ones kids had to watch out for.

Dave F. said...I sent my Nephew "STARDUST" for his daughter and never realized that one chapter early in the book had the conception (the act) described in it. They still tease me about that. Gaiman writes subversively about what he thinks children should know about. This book is no stranger to adult themes. That's why we like it.

freddie said...Stardust was actually really forgettable for me. I don't remember a thing about that book. Oh well. I guess I can always go back and read it again.

BuffySquirrel said... I much preferred Stardust to this book

Phoenix said...I didn't read Stardust but I saw the movie. I can only hope the book is better.

Whirlochre said... The live people thing is true.

BuffySquirrel said...hell is other people!

Dave F. said...I liked the thematic material of STARDUST but not the visualization of the movie. It is a story about growing up and falling in love. Well, more than that, it is a story about love between adults -- real love and not eye-glass steaming, panting, sweat-covered, heaving lust. Another movie I liked becase it had similar themes was "Corpse Bride." not by Gaiman, of course.

freddie said... Wait a minute, Buffy. I seem to remember that you liked the Graveyard Book upon finishing it. What happened?

BuffySquirrel said... i liked it, but i didn't love it

Phoenix said... Epitaphs. What most of us will be known by 100 years from now. I think that's more sad, Buffy, than ghosts.

BuffySquirrel said... ghosts as characters make me sad--their lives are over yet they're somehow still going on epitaphs are just pointless :D

Whirlochre said... The way things are going, future generations will live on forever as heaps of observable unwitnessed serverdump.

Robin S. said...Ewww, Whirl! But, then again, epitaphs being as pointless as they eventually are, what the hell.

Whirlochre said... Sorry Robin — I suppose it's a general question of how much the arena of kid's literature is changing.

Phoenix said...Maybe that IS it, Whirl. That so much has changed since I was the target audience for this book. Or maybe I've changed. But I was reading adult books when I was 9 because I didn't want all the syrup books for my age group were feeding me. Maybe that's why I like this book today.

Dave F. said... Gaiman is not afraid to write books with themes that scare ---
"The Day I Swapped my Dad for Two Goldfish"
"The Wolves in the Walls"
Two themes that might just inspire nightmares in kids.

Whirlochre said... So what kind of fantasy are we saying Gaiman nudges onto our nape?

Dave F. said...I think he's like JAWS --- primal fears.
-- of being unloved and left alone
-- the dark unknown
-- the unpredictable wish that comes true but not the way we thought it would

freddie said... I don't know, Whirl. I love how in Gaiman's stories you just sort of accept the supernatural world in juxtaposition with the real world. Always makes me feel like I've traveled back in time - even when the story is contemporary.

Robin S. said... Exactly what you said, freddie. That's it.

Evil Editor said... As I mentioneed at our last chat, there's a good chance the author will join us for the April chat.

Dave F. said...One of the reasons that the "Jacks" make such good villains is that they are shown to be clownish and incompetent. That's Gaiman's sneaky plot point for children that adults never see.

Robin S. said... I have only a few minutes before I have to go. But I have to say again, I really loved this book. Don't stretch my horizons too much farther, please, EE. My preconcieved notions about what is 'to be read' are folding up the tent - and that's a bit disconcerting.

sylvia said... Oh no! I fell asleep and missed the whole thing. ARGH Well, I'll belatedly say that I enjoyed the book and handed it to my 14-year-old to see what he thought of it. He grumbled a bit about the first chapter ("I'm not sure I want to be reading horror just before bed!") and I reassured him that the rest of the story was toned down. He read a bit that night and then fell asleep. The next night he stayed up past midnight to finish it (he's allowed to read in bed during the holidays but he usually passes out on the book within a short time). He loved it. He's a bit older than the target age group but he neither felt it was "too young" nor did he have any trouble following it. He did admit that he didn't realise that Silas was a vampire until close to the end.

fairyhedgehog said... I was sorry to miss this and it looked like a good chat. I wasn't really aware of the age the book was aimed at - I just enjoyed reading it. I love Gaiman's deceptively simple language. Of course, I grew up in the days when John Wyndham was state of the art. I think people wrote more simply in those days.

V. Dunn said... I bought The Graveyard book two weeks ago for this chat. Sigh... then missed the chat as usual. But I've enjoyed reading it. Y'all are a lot of fun. :-) To the folks who said that the language is too sophisticated for the age range, I'd just like to say that my 11yo (and learning disabled) son grabbed this book from me and read it over 5 very determined days. He loved it. Last Monday he took his own money and went and bought Coraline, by the same author. He finished reading that one, as well. And last night he asked (based on a TV show we were watching) for my copy of the Da Vinci Code. Now, I don't know that he'll actually read that last book, but his (brand new!) interest in reading novels (instead of just gaming magazines) is one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me, as a parent. *happy dance* I need to go write Mr. Gaiman a letter of appreciation...

The Mary Doria Russell/Dreamers of the Day Book Chat

Evil Editor said...The book comes with its own discussion questions, so if one of them sounds intriguing . .

Robin S. said...I didn't read the questions - I prefer to have my own, to be honest.

Evil Editor said... Theory: Russell saw the photo and then wrote the book. Like a writing exercise.

Robin S. said...The photo is evocative, as is/was the era. I suppose that could happen, although my guess is she's been interested in the seminal events of the era, and worked through a way of unfolding them, and maybe the picture was a part of that.

sylvia said...I like the writing but I'm feeling very frustrated at the fact/fiction mix. It bugs me not to know what is real and what is simply the author's version of what could have happened. Even things like that photo - I felt like I should be going to the library to find the original to find out who the two women on foot really were.

Evil Editor said...Maybe it's not known who they were.

sylvia said...I hope it's not known who they are. If it is known and neither is named Shanklin, then I'd be annoyed. If one is named Shanklin, then I'd feel like I should be searching for information about her, to find out how close it is to the author's rendition.

Robin S. said...I think she used the name Shanklin after a teacher. (I always read the author's notes/credits first.)

sylvia said...I love the writing style and I'm more than half in love with Lawrence but the desire to understand the detail (and feeling somewhat inadequate because I don't know which scenes are based on well-known history) means I'm never really getting into the book.

Evil Editor said...I got the impression the history was not fiction, that her take is more accurate than what appears in some history books. She read numerous Lawrence biographies. The acknowledgments at the end convinced me. And she's well-known for extensive research of her books.

Dave F. said...I thought of "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern" because Agnes is merely the observer to history, the chance observer to the Great War to End All Wars, the influenza of '18, the roarings and the depression. She is only important as the observer. It's like a history of a grandmother, the family tale.

sylvia said...She is only important as the observer. But she's much less trustworthy than an actual observer would be. We know she's making things up because it sounds good. I just don't know which bits (maybe it's obvious to others).

Dave F. said...I too, liked the style. I was comfortable reading it. My only pick was the font hurt my eyes. (it's called Bembo)...

Robin S. said...I kind of liked the font Dave- and the history of the font in the back of the book. Kind of felt 'musty' and historical when reading, which worked, all things considered.

Dave F. said...But the font made my eyes hurt as I read it. I find it hard to focus on when I read.

sylvia said...I didn't notice the font at all :) I love things like the Flashman series but I feel like the author went out of his way to make sure that we could see what was known history and what was "Flashman's bizarre view of events" through both the narrative and the extensive footnotes. I guess, the problem for me is that there are real quotes from Churchhill in the book and there are made-up references of things he could have said but didn't. And because I don't know which are which, I don't feel like I can relax and let myself simply enjoy the story.

Evil Editor said...If it's a conversation between Agnes and a character, it's made up. Otherwise it's real.

sylvia said...So when Agnes is at dinner listening to Winston talk to Lawrence, that's real?

Evil Editor said...I assume it's based on what actually came out of that meeting. Whether what they said was taken down I don't know. Churchill's bodyguard, who's a character in the book, wrote a memoir which Russell read.

sylvia said...Oh, I'm thrilled that the bodyguard is real. That's made my day :)

Dave F. said...I think the history is accurate but the meetings and Agnes may be just a device. This is a nice way to begin to understand the SWEEP of historical movements. Please don't take offense, but the Brits never did leave a colonial nation that didn't go bonkers and haywire.

Robin S. said...Of course Agnes and the meetings are a fictional device! She blended in pretty well, though. I have to admit, I don't normally read historical fiction, but Agnes's personality - I've seen it many times in older female relatives - the ones I liked.

Sylvia said...I read a biography that had an interesting device - when the verb was "said" it was a citation and when it was "says" it was paraphrased or remembered. I know it sounds silly but I was very comfortable with that because I knew where I stood. Clearly I have issues :)

Dave F. said...There's a new book out late last year on Churchill that is like the definitive source for quotes. I bought it as a gift and didn't give it away.

sylvia said...See Dave, if I had that book, then I'd take twice as long reading this one because I'd be looking up every word he said ;)

Dave F. said...The book is "Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The only famous quote from Chruchill I remember her writing about is "Blood, toil, tears and sweat" Which is one of the best political speeches of all time.

sylvia said...I liked the style. I like the character. My heart is bleeding for her because it's so clear her attraction to Karl is going to end up in heartbreak.

Dave F. said...Karl the cad, left out of the Circle of the powerful and sneaking in the back door via a dachshund.

Robin S. said...How many men have we all known like that? Ass. He wouldn't help her one time because he had a new suit on. And she said "I called for you, Karl". Don't get me started on the realism of that one.

sylvia said...To Karl's credit, he's clearly using her but at least he's talking to her as an adult. Bear in mind I'll probably change my mind when she gets back to the hotel - I'm not bothered about spoilers but I might still like him more than he deserves :)

BuffySquirrel said...Gah. I buy the book, read the book, remember to turn up for the chat, and my connection melts down....I love the idea that the book was inspired by that photo.

Evil Editor said...Buffy has the floor.

BuffySquirrel said...No, EE, I'm on the floor sobbing, because I've been looking forward to this all week and I can't fucking post or read the posts most of the time.
Ahem. Enough with the self-sorries.

sylvia said...Buffy, just write. EE can sort it out in the edit (and I'm interested in your view!)

BuffySquirrel said...I don't see the need to pick Agnes out as an observer; most people are observers. We, the readers, are observers. So I'm not sure it's a useful comment. I actually felt comfortable with the way the fictional narrative and the history meshed; that doesn't often happen for me.

Robin S. said...For me, I had to almost forget the history part being insinuated into the story - and just read as though I were reading pure fiction. Difficult, though, at times. "Please! Call me Winston." on page 114 threw me for a loop. Those kinds of things. My takeaway was, though, that the era of the strong woman who was gonna be able to use her strengths and not amend them for some Karl ass was on the rise. And I was happy about that.

sylvia said...LOL Yes!

Dave F. said...I know women who were raised by their mothers to stay with their mothers. I know real women who could be Agnes and her mother. And one is my age, so they aren't old (or elderly).

BuffySquirrel said...Oh, yeah, the Agnes and her mother situation is totally realistic.

sylvia said...I agree: Agnes and her Mumma had a totally believable relationship - made even better because we are learning it through Agnes as an unreliable narrator (in this particular case)

Robin S. said...I agree, Sylvia. I've read before that any time you see a first person narrator, you are by definition seeing an unreliable narrator. Even when they seem reliable. Because their filter is their filter.

sylvia said...That's a good example actually - do you remember the scene where they have to get off the train and Lawrence basically steps out and they stop shouting "cut their throats" and start shouting Lawrence's name? She prefaces it saying that there was a lot of controversy and she knows she is biased and all she can tell you is what she witnessed that day. That's the kind of scene that broke my suspension of disbelief. Is the author telling me 1) the specific event never happened but it could have 2) the event happened but the source is unreliable 3) the event happened and Agnes is simply being polite in her disclaimer

Evil Editor said...I'm surprised the lawyers didn't shaft Agnes out of her inheritances. It was cool that she didn't mind spending money once she had it. Many would not have been able to get away from their ingrained spendthriftness after living with Mumma.

BuffySquirrel said...Probably the lawyers were too busy shafting richer people....

Robin S. said...I remember women my mother's age who had no real grasp on recent world history, and didn't care that they didn't, absolutely swooning over Peter O'Toole's Lawrence, complete with gorgeous soundtrack. So when Lawrence was in the book, I kept hearing the soundtrack. Rather than being annoying, I found it to be very pleasurable. History on history.

Dave F. said...The Treaty of Versailles did lay the foundation for WW2.

Robin S. said...Of course the Treaty of Versailles helped lay the foundation for WWII. And the Brits doing a divvy job on the Middle East like they were playing a board game didn't help the current situation much, now did it?

BuffySquirrel said...Umm, the overthrow of Iraq's democratic government by the British and the Americans in the 1950s probably had MORE to do with the problems now.

Dave F. said...The British Mandate, Palestine and Transjordan are all real entities. This was the time when Europe created Iraq from Persian, Kurds, and Turks. When the Shia and Sunni got merged together and the places Like Saudi Arabia got set up because Europe thought it looked good.

sylvia said...I think that to an extent they had to do something and there was a limited number of options available. Assigning blame is kind of like trying to pull the snow off a snowball rolling down a mountain - it's layers. That said, I did like the "inner circle" view of the factions and the knowledge (and lack of it!) that went into very serious decision making.

BuffySquirrel said...What was also sad was seeing these desperate attempts to sort out the problems generated by the war, and the utter blindness of it all, and knowing what it would lead to. Very sad.

Robin S. said...P S - every time I mention the Brits screwing up the map, JB gets pissed. And I tell him when he stops making fun of my accent, i'll stop reminding him of the sad morass that is the backslop of his imperialist heritage.

BuffySquirrel said...So, no European in your heritage, Robin? :D I've just been reading about the hash the Dutch made of international relations while building up the spice trade. Yeuch.

Robin S. said...Hey. I love Britain. I'll probably be moving there within a year or two. And become a British citizen. What I said has nothing to do with being a Brit in general. It has to do with the previously accepted notion of imperialism.

BuffySquirrel said...Imperialism is a disease that can affect any society if the conditions are right. America's in its imperialist phase right now. And it's going...badly. You're very welcome to come here, Robin. But the weather really is as bad as we say.

Evil Editor said...Moving to Britain? They're still in the dark ages.

BuffySquirrel said...The dark ages, EE? Nah, we have electric light 'n' even DVD players!

Evil Editor said...I found her history of the influenza pandemic much more riveting than I'd expect to find in a straight history book. More than just stats, it has life.

Dave F. said...I forgot about placing the Influenza epidemic after WW1. EE's right about her relating the events. I hear echoes of it in the news today with the H1N1 flu...

BuffySquirrel said...I was a bit puzzled by the discord by the way the story started--all that about the Influenza and partying like it's 1918...hmm, doesn't scan...yet Agnes seemed to have a very quiet life until she went to Egypt. So I wonder when she was doing all that partying!

Evil Editor said...She wasn't partying, she's narrating from modern times, talking about the twenties in general.

BuffySquirrel said...That would explain it, EE. But it confused me at the time.

sylvia said...I did like the view of the influenza epidemic. In fact, I'm happy with the setting and find the concepts fascinating.

BuffySquirrel said...I really enjoyed the book. I didn't want to put it down. That's great for me, cos I've thrown two books at the wall recently! The book felt true to me. There she is with Winston Churchill, and she didn't even recognise him. That felt real. And the way he kept her standing in the sun while he was painting. SO believable!

Dave F. said...What do we think of the ending? I found it charming and thoughtful.

BuffySquirrel said...I liked the ending; I thought it fitted with the mood of the book. Although I was very sad Agnes lost her chance of a child of her own.

Dave F. said...TE Lawrence was idolized by the Arab populace. He really did accept them as a people capable of ruling themselves while most of Europe wanted financial advantage and political sway.

BuffySquirrel said...Lawrence was a much more complex character than the movie reveals, though. Or than is revealed by this book; but then this book isn't about him. He's just in it :D.

BuffySquirrel said...I loved the nuances in her relationship with Karl; how she knows the bodyguard is right about him, but she goes ahead anyway. She makes a choice to take what she can get.

Dave F. said...I had a bit of a nudge when I was young. My Mother was the only catholic working for United Jewish Appeal while I was growing up and because of that, I knew lots of history going back that far about Palestine. When Lawrence of Arabia came out, they (my Jewish friends) described how it fit into the history after WW1 and the early 20's. It was the Brits who ripped Israel out of their mandate of Palestine and gave refuge to the Jews after WW2. I hear Karl's statement of "you all got a homeland, now leave" (or whatever the exact words were) from the older men.

sylvia said...I've never seen Lawrence of Arabia but this book has made me think I should. :)

BuffySquirrel said...Oh, you should, Syl, it's a great film.

sylvia said...Internet connectivity is still not to be trusted though.

Robin S. said...See the film, Syl, if for no other reason than the combo plan of O'Toole's piercing blue eyes (my favoritest favorite color) and the music are swoon-worthy. And oh yeah, it's a good movie as well. Back to the novel - I think it was interesting that Agnes noticed and talked about Lawrence's withdrawal from the movie star status he'd acquired. When I read that, I thought, you go, honey. There's a man who doesn't have to pretend he has kahunas.

sylvia said...Karl's not even being a jerk yet (although he's clearly going to be) and I'm already going "chase after Lawrence, woman" at her :)

BuffySquirrel said...lol, Syl

Dave F. said...I met some of the HEROES of Israel. Yes, they did start out in rebellion to create Israel. But they were nice guys, too.

sylvia said...Yeah but that can be said of a lot of rebellious types / terrorists / scary single-minded people.

BuffySquirrel said...Anyone can be a nice guy, but that won't necessarily stop them shooting you in their nice cause. I once worked with someone who'd been a terrorist while the British were trying to keep the peace in Cyprus. (Hah!) He was a very nice guy. So what's your point?

Dave F. said...My point was exactly yours, Buffy. Maybe a bit more sarcastic on my side.
I didn't meet Gold Meir and Bibi Netanyahu, but my Mother did. Netanyahu's brother was the only death in the Entebbe raid.

Evil Editor said...I expected someone to complain there was too much travelogue description of Egypt. Agnes does apologize at one point for that.

BuffySquirrel said...I liked the descriptions because they read like Agnes' personal reaction to Egypt, not just rote-stuff lifted from a travel book or the internet. I struggle with that kinda thing so it's great to see it done well. Also, she skipped the mandatory sandstorm scene. Says she, who's been researching, yes, sandstorms....

sylvia said...Very true. I thought the apology was totally in character. And I didn't mind the descriptions and details of her travels at all! We joined her on this trip as a tourist, after all. I could imagine someone starting the book without context (or even reading the back cover) and complaining about all the politics, but not the travelogue.

Dave F. said...The travelogue drags a bit but then, who of us has ridden a camel?

sylvia said...I have! For about 10 minutes and it was every bit as uncomfortable as she described.

BuffySquirrel said...My sister rode a camel! Also got interrogated about the Middle Eastern stamps in her passport when flying to the US. This was the 1980s.

BuffySquirrel said...There were some asides in the narrative that I didn't like, because they reminded me that I was reading something contrived. Spoilt the suspension of disbelief. Fortunately, there weren't many of them. But they did feel out of place at times, as if some (evil) editor had insisted they be put there :D.

Robin S. said...Sorry. I haven't hit refresh for a minute. I was trying to find a passage about being Jewish that struck me. I've always thought religious hatred, anyone on anyone, was so unbelievably stupid and revolting. And I've seen a lot of it. Who cares if someone's Jewish? No need to answer- I get it. But it's such a creepy scapegoat way to live one's life. I'm gonna try to find the page...

BuffySquirrel said...Robin, it's where Agnes finds out Karl's Jewish and he's waiting for her to reject him. Funnily enough, I had a similar experience with an online friend who expected me to have a problem with her being a lesbian.

sylvia said...I remember that bit where she suddenly realised Karl was Jewish. I thought it was totally in keeping with the time and her upbringing. If she had immediately not cared I would have seen that as unrealistic.

Robin S. said...Yeah, Sylvia,I know what you mean about the times and religion. My mother's entire family boycotted her marriage to a Catholic in 1950. No one from her side of the family was allowed to attend 'the abomination'. Weird, huh? But not in Kentucky, in 1950. It was done all the time.

Dave F. said...There was a time when Israel refused admittance if you came to Jerusalem from Cairo or Jordan or Beirut. You had to do the reverse tour, go to Israel first.

Evil Editor said...Interesting that Jerusalem was a tourist trap in the twenties. I wonder if it's still like that. Pieces of the cross for sale. Get 'em here, cheap.

BuffySquirrel said...Jerusalem has its own syndrome. People go there and get All Religious and have to be calmed down.

sylvia said...I'm just reading the reader reviews on amazon - some very nasty comments there.

The book reads like a superficial travelogue and the parts dealing with real historical figures like T.E. Lawrence and Winston Churchill are unbelievably bad: Churchill is a caricature, an objectional imperialist buffoon, while T.E. Lawrence, though treated sympathetically, makes little or no impression on the reader. I feel that the whole point in the book for the author was the "sermon" at the end, where she tells the reader what he/she should think about the Middle East and War in general. Come on Mary Doria Russel! What has happened to you!

BuffySquirrel said...Lol, are they suggesting Churchill WASN'T objectionable?

Dave F. said...Amazon reviews can go completely off the main road and into the oddest corners. I've read some reviews of books and movies that I know very well and the most startling are of music (symphonies) I've heard being recorded. The reviewers get it so wrong.

Evil Editor said...Authors who write in different genres aren't always treated kindly by those who expect them to write the same thing every time. I don't suppose anyone else read The Sparrow?

Robin S. said...I haven't read any other novels by Russell, but I like her already, and will read more. She has my maiden name. (Hey- it may be silly reason, but it's my reason, so there you go.) I looked at her previous novels on Amazon when I ordered this one - and it did look like she was unusual, in that she didn't stay 'in type'.

Evil Editor said...Your Catholic heritage will make The Sparrow a winner, even though you don't normally read science fiction.

BuffySquirrel said...I haven't read The Sparrow, but I will, soon as the Nasty Letters From the Bank stop coming.

sylvia said...I haven't read the Sparrow but unless you say bad things about it, I'm adding it to my wishlist.

Dave F. said...I thought about buying "The Sparrow" but after I read the Author's interview, I decided not to. Part of the charm of this book was it's style and a different genre would ruin that.

Robin S. said...Yeah, Dave, but style or not, she writes well, so that I could see her writing well in another genre.

sylvia said...She is without question a good author - I think I'll like her other books more because I won't have the suspension of disbelief issues. Not that I have time to read them, I need to finish this and get started on the next chat book!

BuffySquirrel said...I just realised my brain conveniently edited out the very end of the book, with the afterlife bit, which I didn't like, and decided to end it earlier while it still liked it. Tricksy brain!

Evil Editor said...Is the book better if Agnes isn't a ghost? Possibly the early parts in Ohio wouldn't have been as interesting due to Agnes's sheltered life, as she could make them looking back.

Dave F. said...I think I would have been disappointed if Agnes hadn't continued the story past her death. It was the recollection of the past that made the book all the more fascinating.

BuffySquirrel said...I don't mind her being a ghost; I just thought the riverbank stuff was, well, a bit daft, and didn't really add anything to the story.

Robin S. said...I liked telling it as an afterlife person. And I have to tell you all, corny or not, I loved the river part in the end. The idea of spiritually inhabiting the river. Oh- and also loved the idea of her as a little old lady in the library - and her words of advice on page- oh crap- can't find it - on how to give children help, how to bring them along within themselves.

Dave F. said...Those were her children. Not of her blood, but of her mind. the little ones who learned better and went on to be better. What more would anyone want?

sylvia said...I've been noticing her talking about being dead, I've been trying to ignore it. (I'm not there yet but) couldn't she tell the story as efficiently from a position of very old age? I'd quite happily accept her living quietly until 105 and then telling her story. Obviously, if her death is critical to the plot, this would not work.

Evil Editor said...Even if she lived to 105, she wouldn't be able to refer to what's going on nowadays in the Middle east. BTW, not to spoil anything Syl, but she doesn't die as part of the plot. You seemed worried.

Blogger sylvia said...I expected spoilers - it's my fault for not getting finished in time. Although I did start to envision Rosie darting into Cairo traffic and Agnes getting hit by a taxi trying to save her.

Evil Editor said...No comments for a while. Time to wind things up. Next month a fairy tale (sort of) from Salman Rushdie, with Robin explaining everything to us.

BuffySquirrel said...Eh, if the chat's over, I'm going to stop fighting with the Internet Connection From Hell, and go to bed. I really liked this book. I even recommended it to my dad, and he can be WITHERING if he doesn't like something.

Dave F. said...I have to do some things before HELLS KITCHEN flames up... Be good ya'll.

The Salman Rushdie/The Enchantress of Florence Book Chat

May, 2009 

 sylvia said...I didn't expect to like this at all. I've never read anything by Rushdie but when I started the book, it felt so ponderous. If it wasn't for the book chat, I don't think I would have read on.

Evil Editor said...I was really into the story of Mogor Dell Amore which was basically Book 1, then I got a bit lost (bored?) in Book 2 when Mogor was telling his history leading up to the enchantress showing up. Book 3, which was the enchantress/mirror story I loved, and the ending was unexpectedly fantastic.

sylvia said...I agree. I'm not sure how far in I was when I realised I was entranced. Even then, I expected a gentle ending, not further improvement.

Evil Editor said...So though I could have done without all the names and places, and with less of the history, I came away with a sense of having been in the hands of a great storyteller, weaving dozens of short pieces into the big story. I think I'd enjoy it more if I read it again. Or maybe it's just that I'm in love with the enchantress . . . and her mirror.

Robin S. said...I didn't expect to like this book - and I did. But it took some work.

I had never read a Rushdie novel before - purposefully - because when I'm told over and over someone is amazing, I balk.

Evil Editor said...It was hard work, no doubt about that. I had to just ignore names and places and hope they weren't important.

ril said...I was late to buy it, so I've only read a few chapters. Frankly, I was reluctant to buy a Rushdie book. I expected ponderous, so far, I've been pleasantly surprised.

Dave F. said...This was the only way I would pick up Rushdie and read him. I normally like plainer language and less dense presentation but this entertained.I also thought part two dragged.

BuffySquirrel said...hated this book. Misogynist or what? I got it in a 3 for 2 deal at Waterstones, so wasted as little money on it as I could. When I hit pages 188/189, I nearly tore the book in half.

Robin S. said...Misogyny and history run together, especially in the age in which this story was told - but that was only part of the story.

BuffySquirrel said...The historical characters being misogynist is one thing; when it's the author, that's another. I want my taxes back.

Evil Editor said...I think you need to see it as being told by Mogor to the emperor, not by Rushdie to us.

BuffySquirrel said...I suppose, EE. But I probably still would've hated it.

sylvia said...I sort of accepted that in the same way as the fantastical elements, Qara Koz loves each man she's with because that's how the story goes. If she were cold and mercenary about it, it would be more realistic but when all said and done, it's a romance and a tragedy. If we got her viewpoint on the story (even as told by Rushdie) I think the details would have been very different.

Dave F. said...I knew an Egyptian fellow a few years ago and he was terribly misogynistic. It was charming in a way.

Evil Editor said...Did you finish it Buff?

BuffySquirrel said...Nope. I gave up during the paean to brothels.

Dave F. said...The enchantress of Florence really was a woman and the enchanter of palace city was a man.

ril said...I was surprised how many liberties were taken with punctuation...

Robin S. said...I suppose when you're in R's shoes, you can do whatever you want with punctuation. Those sure would be the good old days...

Robin S. said...How did you guys feel about the way Rushdie wove history into and out of his story? ril said...There was history?

Evil Editor said...There's Vlad Dracula.

Robin S. said...Obviously, history IS the story, in a manner of speaking - but with this novel, I felt as though I was reading an intricate fairy tale. I actually remember a few times, reading certain lines, feeling the same way I'd felt as a kid, reading, well, fairy tales.

sylvia said...I really liked the way the story was interwoven with history - I think because it was so fantastical, I didn't get bothered about what was and wasn't real. They were clearly characterisations rather than historical figures.

Dave F. said...It does walk through history as much as the last book walked through Palestine and Lawrence. This is the spice trade and the opening of the far east and Asia.

BuffySquirrel said...I think it's more fairy tale than historical. Rushdie takes all kinds of liberties--except, of course, with the attitudes towards women.

Robin S. said...The views on women were distasteful (I say this as a certified occasional ball-buster and a Southern American woman who still has to give idiots the evil eye on occasion, here and there) - but they worked for this book. They belonged there.

BuffySquirrel said...Just how necessary to the book was the paean to brothels? I wonder.

ril said...I got a kind of Don Quixote or Baron Munchausen vibe from it. Not saying it read like a bad translation or anything...

sylvia said...Fairy tale was exactly how I felt about it - something about the way he got around the suspension of disbelief. He keyed into the same part of me that accepts magic mirrors and gingerbread houses. Grimm's Maerchen meets Arabian Nights.

BuffySquirrel said...Unless you believe in magic, it ain't history.

Robin S. said...I think it is history - because what we read in history books is a dry and scattered translation of what life felt like and was lived in past times. To actually inhabit that space.

Evil Editor said...Not to spoil things for ril, but once you finish the book, it's not clear that what happened on pages 188-189 did happen.

BuffySquirrel said...Well, if it hadn't happened on those pages either, I might have carried on reading....

Evil Editor said...One of the things I like is that we don't know how many of the stories Mogor recounts are just a yarn he was spinning, how many were true, how many he believed were true even if they weren't. Probably there are some of each. Did Akbar have him figured out? Akbar turned out to be pretty sharp, and his idea of what really happened was reasonable.

Robin S. said...Yeah, EE - I liked the ambiguity - what did and didn't happen - and whether it mattered, or whether the telling of the story was the end in itself.

ril said...Fear not the spoilers. I'd already figured out the "tall tales" aspect -- hence the Munchausen reference...

sylvia said...Why was his (historical, within reason for the context) attitudes towards women not taking the same sort of liberty?

BuffySquirrel said...He changes things when it suits him; but he keeps the attitudes to women the same. Same with Susanna Clarke in Jonathan Norrell. Anything can change in Fantasy except, it seems, that.

sylvia said...The brothel and specifically the women he met there were critical to the story, buff.

BuffySquirrel said...And all the loving descriptions of the brothels before and after they were closed on pages 188/189 were necessary? I can't see it.Not that I'm not accustomed to the male fantasy of prostitutes falling in love with them. Just bored to death with it.

Evil Editor said...Did you find the attitude toward the enchantress herself despicable?

BuffySquirrel said...She didn't really appear in the story (unless there's some big reveal I missed) by the time I gave up. I kinda thought maybe the magician was a woman for a while.